Automatic gears for bicycle

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
cycle tramp
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Re: Automatic gears for bicycle

Post by cycle tramp »

rareposter wrote: 2 Dec 2023, 7:54am
These systems are aimed at leisure, commuter and utility cyclists.

Most cyclists at that end of the spectrum barely know how many gears their bike has never mind ratios and sequential shifting and chainline. Many don't even know what brand of bike they're on! And when commuting to work, they don't want an "involving" ride and to be challenged, they want a reliable machine to get there and back.

For that purpose, things like e-bikes with auto-shift are amazing. They're enabling, they're fun and you don't need to have gone through some hierarchy of club cycling or learning to get there, you don't need to suffer trying to pull away from the lights in too high a gear. It minimises mechanical wear and tear and - although it's complicated internally - it's a very simple end product for the user.
They're another crutch, in the same way indexed gears are. Another sop to those who can't be bothered or who are to wrapped up in themselves. Another sticking plaster for the generation who would rather take photos of their food than learn how to cook it.

Life is very simple - the more you put in, the more you get out. Learning to change down before you stop the bike in traffic, is something you learn which then becomes second nature.. learning you can crest a small rise in a higher gear because you've sped up as your approached it and used the momentum to carry you over it - Another thing learnt. Learning that you don't need to use your bike gears in order, if the conditions allow it.

I've heard of more people being anxious in this generation more than any other... why? Because rather than rise to whatever challenge which face them they've sought to avoid it by using technology- as a result they have no sense of achievement and through no sense of achievement they have no faith in themselves and perhaps even a diminished sense of self worth.

My view on automatic gear shifting is still the same - it's there for the infirm or the mechanical inept.

Again google #underbiking - there's now alot of writing on the Internet about it.
Dedicated to anyone who has reached that stage https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqbk9cDX0l0 (please note may include humorous swearing)
mattsccm
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Re: Automatic gears for bicycle

Post by mattsccm »

The wife's ebike has an auto power setting which saves thinking about switching up and down I guess. With that finite amount of power and battery there must be a compromise and it doesn't save power or give the maximum ooomph very well. It also defaults to quite a high cadence but it does that not in auto which always seems a bit daft to me as generally less efficient cyclists seem to pedal slower. I wonder if it is to do with load on the motor.
Anyway, to be honest I bet , with torque sensing it could have an auto box as well.
rogerzilla
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Re: Automatic gears for bicycle

Post by rogerzilla »

I drive and own both (sorry, but I do a low annual mileage). Torque converter autos are ultra-reliable but waste quite a bit of fuel. The current Mazda 3 auto , supposedly an advanced one with early lockup, is around 10% less fuel-efficient than the same car with a manual gearbox. Twin clutch gearboxes are very fast but have acquired a reputation for huge repair bills, which is why old VWs are among the cheapest autos you can buy. Almost everyone hates driving CVTs and they are probably not good for 100,000 miles.

I don't much like driving the Mazda auto. It's convenient but is pretty trigger-happy and will embarrassingly choose to drop too many gears when accelerating, making a whole lot of noise. It will also shift halfway through a bend, upsetting the balance of the car.

My SO has a Suzuki Jimny auto with a prehistoric 4-speed torque converter auto and that is a lot less offensive (oddly, it also only loses about 1-2 mpg over the manual version).

I bought the Mazda auto in case she ever needed to drive it (auto licence) but she never does, so I wish I'd saved £2,500 and bought the superior manual version!
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Cugel
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Re: Automatic gears for bicycle

Post by Cugel »

cycle tramp wrote: 2 Dec 2023, 8:22am
rareposter wrote: 2 Dec 2023, 7:54am
These systems are aimed at leisure, commuter and utility cyclists.

Most cyclists at that end of the spectrum barely know how many gears their bike has never mind ratios and sequential shifting and chainline. Many don't even know what brand of bike they're on! And when commuting to work, they don't want an "involving" ride and to be challenged, they want a reliable machine to get there and back.

For that purpose, things like e-bikes with auto-shift are amazing. They're enabling, they're fun and you don't need to have gone through some hierarchy of club cycling or learning to get there, you don't need to suffer trying to pull away from the lights in too high a gear. It minimises mechanical wear and tear and - although it's complicated internally - it's a very simple end product for the user.
They're another crutch, in the same way indexed gears are. Another sop to those who can't be bothered or who are to wrapped up in themselves. Another sticking plaster for the generation who would rather take photos of their food than learn how to cook it.

Life is very simple - the more you put in, the more you get out. Learning to change down before you stop the bike in traffic, is something you learn which then becomes second nature.. learning you can crest a small rise in a higher gear because you've sped up as your approached it and used the momentum to carry you over it - Another thing learnt. Learning that you don't need to use your bike gears in order, if the conditions allow it.

I've heard of more people being anxious in this generation more than any other... why? Because rather than rise to whatever challenge which face them they've sought to avoid it by using technology- as a result they have no sense of achievement and through no sense of achievement they have no faith in themselves and perhaps even a diminished sense of self worth.

My view on automatic gear shifting is still the same - it's there for the infirm or the mechanical inept.

Again google #underbiking - there's now alot of writing on the Internet about it.
A very interesting post! Well, I find it so. The issue you describe affects so many aspects of modern life besides cycling and a better understanding of its processes and techniques.

Perhaps the underlying general issue is the ever-increasing "division of labour" which goes hand in hand with a division of knowledge. There are so many procedures and activities requiring specialist knowledge and skills that it's become impossible to become adept at more than just a few of them. (Or , for some folk, any of them).

For some, the trend has been an attractive one, as not-knowing also absolves one of responsibilities of various kinds, which are transferred to someone else who does know. I know lots of people who are all too keen to avoid responsibilities of many kinds (I'm one of them) so remaining in a "not knowing" state can be useful! I have no idea how to iron a lady-blouse without singing it, for example. :-)

****************
But some things really do need to be known and understood if you're to avoid them giving you, or someone else, a bite. Cycling is one-such as failure to understand the basic mechanics of riding a bike can cause all sorts of dangers, from merely getting tired too soon to being killed by a large motorised squasher; and many other dangers of various degree.

Many other everyday doings need to be understood too, as involving oneself in them can create serious danger to others. The obvious example is driving a car, which when performed ineptly causes dangers sufficient to murder and maim millions of others worldwide each year.

The question is, then, what should be a base set of knowledge, understanding and skill required if one is to partake of various activities. Taking cycling as an example, I would hope to be capable not just of understanding how a bike works best in using my energy expenditure but also how it'll behave on the road, track or trail in various circumstances and with various antics upon it by me. Cost of not knowing can be fatal! At best, you may just be put off cycling because you come to feel that, "It's just too hard."

The thing is - when riding the bike, no "other-expert" can have the responsibility passed to them. Even the stoker on a tandem has to have some understanding of how cycling "works". As you ride along, you can't do so in ignorance whilst relying on someone else cycling next to you to control your bike and your pedalling too.

Personally I like to take responsibility also for maintaining me bikes. It's easy enough to pass a bike to an LBS expert .... but then the problem is, how do we know the LBS mechanic is an expert and not some lazy bodger? We have to understand something of what the LBS mechanic fixed otherwise how do you know that it is fixed?

Here, there's also the problem of reputation. One might trust someone with a good reputation to act as a proxy for us when making all sorts of decisions or acts on our behalf. But how, then, do you come to trust those who created such a reputation? These days, a reputation can be entirely made with PR, requiring no actual measured performance of the skill involved at all.

**************
In general, there's a lot of understanding - knowledge types - that any human needs to personally have to make the most of life and avoid becoming accidently degraded to various poor conditions, including dead. One such understanding that's generally very useful - essential in many circumstances - is the understanding of what used to be called, in the school syllabus, "mechanics", covering the basic Newtonian stuff around forces/masses of various kinds.

I'm often aghast at how some folk attempt what seem to me, a fellow educated in "mechanics", to be obviously dangerous manoeuvres - not just on a bike but in all sorts of other circumstances where a force and a mass are obviously going to wallop them or someone else if they do what they propose to do.

There are several other knowledge domains where a basic understanding seems essential, as responsibilities for dealing with whatever-it-is can't really be passed to an expert. Knowing how to parse, analyse and judge the utterances and behaviours of politicians vying for your vote, for example. After all, you cannot trust journalists and other-such to do it for you. They only do PR, these days. :-)
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
Jdsk
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Re: Automatic gears for bicycle

Post by Jdsk »

This thread was about automatic gears for bicycles.

Please could goldenagery, the perceived decline of society, and how contemptible, irresponsible and generally awful other people are nowadays be discussed elsewhere.

Thanks

Jonathan
rareposter
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Joined: 27 Aug 2014, 2:40pm

Re: Automatic gears for bicycle

Post by rareposter »

Jdsk wrote: 2 Dec 2023, 9:43am This thread was about automatic gears for bicycles.

Please could goldenagery, the perceived decline of society, and how contemptible, irresponsible and generally awful other people are nowadays be discussed elsewhere.
Well said!

And once again, as I mentioned on another thread, it'd be interesting to know from all the posters on here:
Have you ever ridden an e-bike?
Have you ever ridden an auto-shift?
Have you ridden any other form of bike assistance like electronic gears?
Or are you just against the whole principle of assistance because it's somehow a slur on the "purity" (whatever the hell that is...) of cycling?
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Cugel
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Re: Automatic gears for bicycle

Post by Cugel »

Jdsk wrote: 2 Dec 2023, 9:43am This thread was about automatic gears for bicycles.

Please could goldenagery, the perceived decline of society, and how contemptible, irresponsible and generally awful other people are nowadays be discussed elsewhere.

Thanks

Jonathan
Oooh - a self-appointed prefect comes. Or are you just setting up some sort of Thread Enclosure Act, with yourself as the Rightful Owner?

Personally I enjoy discussions that range widely, here & there. Restrictive would-be gagger pedants are welcome too, of course. :-)
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
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Cugel
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Re: Automatic gears for bicycle

Post by Cugel »

rareposter wrote: 2 Dec 2023, 10:00am
Jdsk wrote: 2 Dec 2023, 9:43am This thread was about automatic gears for bicycles.

Please could goldenagery, the perceived decline of society, and how contemptible, irresponsible and generally awful other people are nowadays be discussed elsewhere.
Well said!

And once again, as I mentioned on another thread, it'd be interesting to know from all the posters on here:
Have you ever ridden an e-bike?
Have you ever ridden an auto-shift?
Have you ridden any other form of bike assistance like electronic gears?
Or are you just against the whole principle of assistance because it's somehow a slur on the "purity" (whatever the hell that is...) of cycling?
Your interrogation is fair enough except for that last one, which is a-one of those questions that isn't a question since it contains the answers you prefer and allow, because they denigrate the poster you and jdsk have decided to hunt down. I'm almost tempted to ask you if you've stopped beating your wife because she's just escaped or because your stick is broken.

The post you take umbrage agin' might be a bit ranty but it makes a fair point in there somewhere that's worth discussing. Well, it is if you haven't fallen into a for-me-or-against-me mode.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
cycle tramp
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Re: Automatic gears for bicycle

Post by cycle tramp »

rareposter wrote: 2 Dec 2023, 10:00am
Jdsk wrote: 2 Dec 2023, 9:43am This thread was about automatic gears for bicycles.

Please could goldenagery, the perceived decline of society, and how contemptible, irresponsible and generally awful other people are nowadays be discussed elsewhere.
Well said!

And once again, as I mentioned on another thread, it'd be interesting to know from all the posters on here:
Have you ever ridden an e-bike?
Have you ever ridden an auto-shift?
Have you ridden any other form of bike assistance like electronic gears?
Or are you just against the whole principle of assistance because it's somehow a slur on the "purity" (whatever the hell that is...) of cycling?
Well in answer to your questions - I've driven loads of stuff, including a self powered wheel barrow, a mantis digger, 1960's lambretta, various smaller capacity motorcycles, an automatic mini countryman (1970's) citron 2cv, several types of tractor, several types of rider on professional lawnmowers (most using hydrostatic drives) including some really quite wide ones and a couple of larger off road vehicles.. other power tools I've used, (in case there are bonus questions) chainsaws, strimmers and pneumatic drills... I've also toured on a nu-vinci hub geared bike, rolhoff speed hub, 3 speed hub, friction 1x5 gears up to friction 4x7 gears...
Despite all this experience, I would still use a manual gearbox for cars and a friction shift derailleur for bikes.. :-) (however I would choose hydrostatic transmission for ride on grass cutters :-) automatic gear systems for those of us who had indept groundskeeping skills - yeah, I'll hold my hand up to that one)

In regards to electric bikes - I'm not at that stage, but when I am, I will - probably using some sort of bolt on system which friction drives directly from the back tyre.
Dedicated to anyone who has reached that stage https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqbk9cDX0l0 (please note may include humorous swearing)
cycle tramp
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Re: Automatic gears for bicycle

Post by cycle tramp »

Cugel wrote: 2 Dec 2023, 9:37am
cycle tramp wrote: 2 Dec 2023, 8:22am
rareposter wrote: 2 Dec 2023, 7:54am
These systems are aimed at leisure, commuter and utility cyclists.

Most cyclists at that end of the spectrum barely know how many gears their bike has never mind ratios and sequential shifting and chainline. Many don't even know what brand of bike they're on! And when commuting to work, they don't want an "involving" ride and to be challenged, they want a reliable machine to get there and back.

For that purpose, things like e-bikes with auto-shift are amazing. They're enabling, they're fun and you don't need to have gone through some hierarchy of club cycling or learning to get there, you don't need to suffer trying to pull away from the lights in too high a gear. It minimises mechanical wear and tear and - although it's complicated internally - it's a very simple end product for the user.
My view on automatic gear shifting is still the same - it's there for the infirm or the mechanical inept.

Again google #underbiking - there's now alot of writing on the Internet about it.
A very interesting post! Well, I find it so. The issue you describe affects so many aspects of modern life besides cycling and a better understanding of its processes and techniques.

Perhaps the underlying general issue is the ever-increasing "division of labour" which goes hand in hand with a division of knowledge. There are so many procedures and activities requiring specialist knowledge and skills that it's become impossible to become adept at more than just a few of them. (Or , for some folk, any of them).

****************
But some things really do need to be known and understood if you're to avoid them giving you, or someone else, a bite. Cycling is one-such as failure to understand the basic mechanics of riding a bike can cause all sorts of dangers, from merely getting tired too soon to being killed by a large motorised squasher; and many other dangers of various degree.

Many other everyday doings need to be understood too, as involving oneself in them can create serious danger to others. The obvious example is driving a car, which when performed ineptly causes dangers sufficient to murder and maim millions of others worldwide each year.

The question is, then, what should be a base set of knowledge, understanding and skill required if one is to partake of various activities. Taking cycling as an example, I would hope to be capable not just of understanding how a bike works best in using my energy expenditure but also how it'll behave on the road, track or trail in various circumstances and with various antics upon it by me. Cost of not knowing can be fatal! At best, you may just be put off cycling because you come to feel that, "It's just too hard."

Personally I like to take responsibility also for maintaining me bikes. It's easy enough to pass a bike to an LBS expert .... but then the problem is, how do we know the LBS mechanic is an expert and not some lazy bodger? We have to understand something of what the LBS mechanic fixed otherwise how do you know that it is fixed?

I'm often aghast at how some folk attempt what seem to me, a fellow educated in "mechanics", to be obviously dangerous manoeuvres - not just on a bike but in all sorts of other circumstances where a force and a mass are obviously going to wallop them or someone else if they do what they propose to do.

There are several other knowledge domains where a basic understanding seems essential, as responsibilities for dealing with whatever-it-is can't really be passed to an expert. Knowing how to parse, analyse and judge the utterances and behaviours of politicians vying for your vote, for example. After all, you cannot trust journalists and other-such to do it for you. They only do PR, these days. :-)
Thank you - I found your post interesting as well :-)
Dedicated to anyone who has reached that stage https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqbk9cDX0l0 (please note may include humorous swearing)
jimlews
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Re: Automatic gears for bicycle

Post by jimlews »

Well I'm just waiting for the motivated, self-riding bicycle.
Absolutely no effort involved.
rareposter
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Re: Automatic gears for bicycle

Post by rareposter »

Cugel wrote: 2 Dec 2023, 9:37am Personally I like to take responsibility also for maintaining me bikes. It's easy enough to pass a bike to an LBS expert .... but then the problem is, how do we know the LBS mechanic is an expert and not some lazy bodger? We have to understand something of what the LBS mechanic fixed otherwise how do you know that it is fixed?
I do get that point of view but I also don't understand why it only seems to apply to bikes that need to be simple and "fixable by the home mechanic" and have a degree of elegance and purity and not be complicated...? If I take my car to a garage or bike to a shop, I expect the mechanic to explain and maybe show me what is wrong, I do not expect or need to understand every aspect of my car in order for the garage to fix it.

We return to the point that the vast majority of people riding bikes do not have the time, space, tools, resources, knowledge or interest in maintaining their bike themselves - same as people don't maintain, fix or fettle with their car, computer and home plumbing. I know this forum has some genuine experts on all manner of bike fixing and bike tech but that is absolutely not representative of the bicycle-riding public.

For something to be simple, it doesn't have to mean a basic wires and levers device that can be fixed in the back end of Mongolia using a penknife and a pair of pliers. You can create a simple-to-use device (like a Rohloff hub) that is very complicated and not user-serviceable but that makes life for the rider much easier. Same with this - it's a basic electric motor with some added gear-changing software that is very complicated and not user-serviceable but makes life for the rider much easier.
Nearholmer
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Re: Automatic gears for bicycle

Post by Nearholmer »

Apart from being a cause of all sorts of degeneracy, up to and including the fall of civilisation, I think the issue for keen cyclists is that an enjoyable-to-use automatic ratio selector would probably need to include a ‘power’ setting, as in how much power the rider wishes to deploy, plus a setting that permitted the torque-cadence balance for a given power to be altered. Do-able, I’m sure, but whether it’s done now, I don’t know.

It’s a bit like cameras. Most people for most of the time are delighted to have a full automatic, without giving much thought to the decisions that it’s making, and these days that allows them to take photos of a technical quality that even the best professional would have struggled to achieve fifty years ago. But, dead-keen amateurs, and professionals, know all about controlling depth of field, using blur to convey motion, and a host of other techniques, so they want degrees of control up to full manual, and probably a lot of control over the post-exposure processing of the image too.

Im not aware that, so far, fully automatic cameras have led to mental degeneracy, although maybe I missed something. The same goes for automatic washing machines, ovens with programmable on-off times, and a host of other things.
Last edited by Nearholmer on 2 Dec 2023, 2:53pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cowsham
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Re: Automatic gears for bicycle

Post by Cowsham »

cycle tramp wrote: 2 Dec 2023, 7:55am
Cowsham wrote: 2 Dec 2023, 2:44am
cycle tramp wrote: 1 Dec 2023, 10:52pm
Er.... no its not. Mpg has always remained better for vehicles with a manual 'box than an automatic 'box... and personally I find driving a manual 'box far more engaging and rewarding than an automatic....
I absolutely disagree there -- imagine a power source that the harder you press the accelerator the faster the machine goes. No gearbox no clutch just forward thrust. The more you press the pedal the harder you sink into the seat. That's a fast machine.
It's a documented fact that manual cars have a better mpg, and I know from my driving experience that this is true.
An automatic car will always have to work through each gear in order. When I drive I don't have to do that...

..if I'm desending a slope and the flow of traffic allows me, I have the choice of going from 2nd to 4th or 3rd to 5th... if there's no traffic around whatsoever I can even knock it out of gear and allow it to freewheel (although generally frowned upon) slowing for a junction, I can knock it from 4 to 2 or even arrive at the junction in 1st if I have my speed right down.

No matter how advanced the suto' box is, because I can actually choose my gear selection, i will always achieve a better mpg.

Admittedly these decisions take a little more thought which keeps me focused on my driving - the issue which seems to have escaped everyone's mind is that by making a car easier to drive, the driver less focused on driving it, and as a result not paying attention to the conditions in which they are driving - which makes everyone less safe.
Manual cars are less economical now

Modern autos have cvt ( or electric motors driving wheels) so there is no break in traction and the drive is always positive with no slip like the old torque converters. Every time you change gear in a manual car you waste energy.

I told you to look up the economy figures for similar yaris cvt and compare them to their hybrid or manual equivalents. This is why I bought the cvt in the first place through reading the documented figures

When you are driving an automatic you have one less problem to concentrate on so more focus can be applied to the actual driving. Not only that but because the car isn't losing traction while you change gear you don't upset the balance of the car going into corners so it is safer. This is one of the reasons the cvt made the Williams Renault f1 car 2 sec a lap quicker.

Electric is similar to cvt to drive and I find it even safer, easier to control, I'm not falling asleep in it. It also has driver aid warnings for hazards it perceives that you may not.
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Cowsham
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Re: Automatic gears for bicycle

Post by Cowsham »

jimlews wrote: 2 Dec 2023, 2:36pm Well I'm just waiting for the motivated, self-riding bicycle.
Absolutely no effort involved.

Look up self balancing electric motorcycles .
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