Automatic gears for bicycle

[cycle tramp]

I absolutely disagree there -- imagine a power source that the harder you press the accelerator the faster the machine goes. No gearbox no clutch just forward thrust. The more you press the pedal the harder you sink into the seat. That's a fast machine.

It's a documented fact that manual cars have a better mpg, and I know from my driving experience that this is true.
An automatic car will always have to work through each gear in order. When I drive I don't have to do that...

..if I'm desending a slope and the flow of traffic allows me, I have the choice of going from 2nd to 4th or 3rd to 5th... if there's no traffic around whatsoever I can even knock it out of gear and allow it to freewheel (although generally frowned upon) slowing for a junction, I can knock it from 4 to 2 or even arrive at the junction in 1st if I have my speed right down.

No matter how advanced the suto' box is, because I can actually choose my gear selection, i will always achieve a better mpg.

Admittedly these decisions take a little more thought which keeps me focused on my driving - the issue which seems to have escaped everyone's mind is that by making a car easier to drive, the driver less focused on driving it, and as a result not paying attention to the conditions in which they are driving - which makes everyone less safe.

Manual cars are less economical now

Modern autos have cvt ( or electric motors driving wheels) so there is no break in traction and the drive is always positive with no slip like the old torque converters. Every time you change gear in a manual car you waste energy.

When you are driving an automatic you have one less problem to concentrate on so more focus can be applied to the actual driving. Not only that but because the car isn't losing traction while you change gear you don't upset the balance of the car going into corners so it is safer. This is one of the reasons the cvt made the Williams Renault f1 car 2 sec a lap quicker.

Whilst I appreciate the bold type, ah.... it didn't work for me when Pinhead did it, and it's not working for me now. As I said in the above post - yeah I get automatic transmission, the last rider on mower I used which was 6 or 9 grass cutting cylinders wide, had it... but that was a grass cutter..

...every time you change gear you waste energy- ah, only if you keep your foot on the accelerator and I wouldn't do that.. when you drive a manual the energy is stored as momentum (speed x mass) and that's the same for any vehicle regardless of what it is or its transmission...

....as for one less thing to worry about? Its not like i''ve never worried about my gear changes, if you plan your advance along the road whilst driving, you know where and when you going to make those changes... two car lengths back from the junction that's 2nd gear territory, 4 cars lengths, that brakng space, 6 car lengths all around observation, twelve car lengths observation, off the gas, signal if its not already on ..... and so on.. never once have I needed to change gear whilst cornering- that sounds mad... I mean, why would you? Slow into the corner, maintain your speed, accelerate only on exit, only if it is safe to do so...

..I would sincerely hope that a modern automatic transmission is more energy efficient that an older design...but it still has to run through every gear, whereas I can go from 4 to 2, or 3 to 5, or 5 into 3 depending on the conditions. Like a friction shifters, a manual box means you can miss out the gears you don't need...

[Cowsham]

Almost everyone hates driving CVTs and they are probably not good for 100,000 miles.

How would you know ? Is this just an assumption ? You haven't got a cvt.

Our Toyota was a great car to drive -- more economic than it's manual equivalent -- faster and had well over 100k miles on till someone drove into it and destroyed it.

Where it scored was on motorways where the draft of traffic sucked the car along as the gear ratio continuously increased till I had 70 MPH at sometimes 80 or 90 MPG on the dash, me hardly touching the throttle. Simple but brilliant. I often wondered why all cars weren't cvt.

The electric car replacing it is a great thing too. So many advantages especially now in winter. Traction control is superb and pre heating the car before a trip is fabulous. No standing outside clearing the hard ice off the windows just get into a nice warm car and drive.

[Cugel]

Personally I like to take responsibility also for maintaining me bikes. It's easy enough to pass a bike to an LBS expert .... but then the problem is, how do we know the LBS mechanic is an expert and not some lazy bodger? We have to understand something of what the LBS mechanic fixed otherwise how do you know that it is fixed?

I do get that point of view but I also don't understand why it only seems to apply to bikes that need to be simple and "fixable by the home mechanic" and have a degree of elegance and purity and not be complicated...? If I take my car to a garage or bike to a shop, I expect the mechanic to explain and maybe show me what is wrong, I do not expect or need to understand every aspect of my car in order for the garage to fix it.

We return to the point that the vast majority of people riding bikes do not have the time, space, tools, resources, knowledge or interest in maintaining their bike themselves - same as people don't maintain, fix or fettle with their car, computer and home plumbing. I know this forum has some genuine experts on all manner of bike fixing and bike tech but that is absolutely not representative of the bicycle-riding public.

For something to be simple, it doesn't have to mean a basic wires and levers device that can be fixed in the back end of Mongolia using a penknife and a pair of pliers. You can create a simple-to-use device (like a Rohloff hub) that is very complicated and not user-serviceable but that makes life for the rider much easier. Same with this - it's a basic electric motor with some added gear-changing software that is very complicated and not user-serviceable but makes life for the rider much easier.

Its not hard to agree with what you say - but we should also recognise the "price" of remaining ignorant (or, put more nidely, unable to learn through lack of time and a vast array of subjects, not to mention their functions being black-boxed). It's very easy to gain access to things that we don't have the competence to control because of our ignorance about how they function, inclusive of an ignorance about their dangers.

For example, anyone can buy a table saw, chain saw or angle grinder then do themselves some serious damage because there's no real education included to stop the novice falling foul of the many dangers unless they learn about and understand them in terms of how their actions using the things can create such dangers. The printed blurb that comes with such things covers only a tiny fraction of the possible dangers, usually in an inadequate fashion such as tiny print using lots of (to a novice) mysterious terminology.

To a degree, bicycles are like this, presenting to the novice a host of control-requirements that they can have little of no understanding of unless they take the trouble and make the effort to learn them, both theoretically and practically via use, preferably monitored by an expert. (As Cycling UK tries to arrange; as did the cycling proficiency test).

If the bicycle is sold as fully-automated, this encourages the notion that the buyer need learn nothing about cycling other than how to sit on it without falling off. But failing to understand all sorts of automated functions and the consequences of them being applied in various ways for various cycling situations can be dangerous.

All that doesn't mean that there isn't a place for automation of various bicycle functions. But there is a lot to be said for learning how they work and how to use them for the best via understanding and experiencing more primitive, non-automated functions of the kind that the fab new tech will otherwise leave as a mystery to the novice.

[Cowsham]

It's a documented fact that manual cars have a better mpg, and I know from my driving experience that this is true.
An automatic car will always have to work through each gear in order. When I drive I don't have to do that...

..if I'm desending a slope and the flow of traffic allows me, I have the choice of going from 2nd to 4th or 3rd to 5th... if there's no traffic around whatsoever I can even knock it out of gear and allow it to freewheel (although generally frowned upon) slowing for a junction, I can knock it from 4 to 2 or even arrive at the junction in 1st if I have my speed right down.

No matter how advanced the suto' box is, because I can actually choose my gear selection, i will always achieve a better mpg.

Admittedly these decisions take a little more thought which keeps me focused on my driving - the issue which seems to have escaped everyone's mind is that by making a car easier to drive, the driver less focused on driving it, and as a result not paying attention to the conditions in which they are driving - which makes everyone less safe.

Manual cars are less economical now

Modern autos have cvt ( or electric motors driving wheels) so there is no break in traction and the drive is always positive with no slip like the old torque converters. Every time you change gear in a manual car you waste energy.

When you are driving an automatic you have one less problem to concentrate on so more focus can be applied to the actual driving. Not only that but because the car isn't losing traction while you change gear you don't upset the balance of the car going into corners so it is safer. This is one of the reasons the cvt made the Williams Renault f1 car 2 sec a lap quicker.

never once have I needed to change gear whilst cornering- that sounds mad... I mean, why would you? Slow into the corner, maintain your speed, accelerate only on exit, only if it is safe to do so...

Did I say I'd change gear while cornering? No I didn't.

In a cvt you are already in the perfect ratio for that corner so it's safer by design. You're also in the perfect ratio to exit the corner. Same goes for electric the power is always at your control. No variable gearbox required.

[Cugel]

Im not aware that, so far, fully automatic cameras have led to mental degeneracy, although maybe I missed something. The same goes for automatic washing machines, ovens with programmable on-off times, and a host of other things.

Both are good examples of how highly automated tech can result in user ignorance that results in a less than optimum use of their clever gizmo.

If one was brought up with more primitive film photography & cameras, inclusive of the developing and printing processes, a lot of the resultant understanding can be very informative to the digital photography processes, even though those processes offer a much greater range of possibilities. A lot of "good" digital photographs seem to be, at bottom, accidental; and part of a process of taking a zillion auto-pics then selecting the single good one, often via a fully automated development process using Photoshop or similar presets, rather than any knowledge-driven tweaks of the various development tools by the camera/computer owner.

Going by the amount of ruined clothing emerging from ineptly used washing machines that one hears of, the same seems to apply concerning washing. Me, I learnt in a council house scullery annex, with a copper boiler, posser and mangle. Haven't shrunk, felted or tie-dyed stuff in the clever auto-washer yet!

But you forgot to mention the most glaring example - the GPS satnavvy thing dumbly followed by cyclists on to motorways and walkers over cliffs. Shoulda done orienteering first.

Then there's driving a car ........

[Nearholmer]

I’m beginning to understand now:

- every child should be educated by spending their infancy living with hunter-gatherers, or maybe early subsistence farmers;

- primary school should be replaced by a period living with farmers producing some surplus value and having access to some imported goods and techniques, including perhaps bronze and iron working, and maybe water and wind power, and perhaps letterpress printing and gunpowder;

- senior school should be replaced by a series of short sub-apprenticeships covering all the technologies of the first two or three phases of the Industrial Revolution (including bicycles); and,

- possibly university might bring them up to date with technologies devised in the past century or so.

At the end of all this, they will be fully rounded individuals, because they’ve built-up familiarity with living without, and then with, every single one of the long-superseded technologies in human history, which must be a good thing, although I’m less than totally sure why.

[cycle tramp]

Did I say I'd change gear while cornering? No I didn't.

In a cvt you are already in the perfect ratio for that corner so it's safer by design. You're also in the perfect ratio to exit the corner. Same goes for electric the power is always at your control. No variable gearbox required.

Strangely, driving an manual I too am also in the perfect gear ratio for that corner, as my experience, intuition and road conditions will have allowed to me select the correct gear before I enter the corner, and having the exited I can then reselect a different gear should I need to.

I think at this point we should agree to disagree before any third party passes out due to boredom

[Cugel]

I’m beginning to understand now:

- every child should be educated by spending their infancy living with hunter-gatherers, or maybe early subsistence farmers;

- primary school should be replaced by a period living with farmers producing some surplus value and having access to some imported goods and techniques, including perhaps bronze and iron working, and maybe water and wind power, and perhaps letterpress printing and gunpowder;

- senior school should be replaced by a series of short sub-apprenticeships covering all the technologies of the first two or three phases of the Industrial Revolution (including bicycles); and,

- possibly university might bring them up to date with technologies devised in the past century or so.

At the end of all this, they will be fully rounded individuals, because they’ve built-up familiarity with living without, and then with, every single one of the long-superseded technologies in human history, which must be a good thing, although I’m less than totally sure why.

Yes! Your ideas should be sent to that Bollard so when he gets to be dictator, all the young folk will get properly educated - whilst perhaps also ceasing to be mad consumerists in favour of being very competent designer-makers of the first degree. Also, gizmo-addiction will fade away, along with the many crazed beliefs and notions they spew.

In fact, I will write (another olde fashioned activity inducing all sorts of skills) to The Bollard meself, suggesting that you be made 'is new Minster of Edjerkashun.

***************
As a mental experiment, I considered whether my Wesh neighbour (a builder with dozens of self-taught and friend-taught skills of high eptitude, not to mention his farming knowledge from a childhood in the hinterlands) will be the best helpmeet when civilisation goes titsup (about 2026) or whether I ought to sidle up to and cultivate someone with the latest set of must-have gizmos, fashionable clothes and an Audi he can't afford (or drive properly) who works in "sales".

Guess what the answer was.

Meself, I might learn metal working to go with the woodworking. Perhaps I'll end up making wooden bikes? They won't have auto gear boxes or Di2, mind. The tyres might be a problem to make meself ...... .

[plancashire]

Getting back on topic... I am aware of two automatic gear systems for bikes, neither of which I have used.

enviolo is a stepless system. I think it went by another name before, or someone else had something similar. Edit: was NuVinci. No caps now.

Pinion has some automation in their new integrated motor and gear unit. It can step down at stops and step up as you go downhill. I suspect they could add full automation with a software/firmware change.

There's a third one, which is to learn to spin the pedals fast (high cadence) for normal riding but have strong enough leg muscles to be able to drop to a much lower cadence for a short time. Bending more at the ankles helps get more power out at low cadence too. This is a useful gear extender for simple 3-speed utility bikes. I do it on my Brompton.

[Nearholmer]

when civilisation goes titsup (about 2026)

Ah, so all this is about what the Americans call “prepping”.

[fastpedaller]

Personally, I like to take responsibility also for maintaining me bikes. It's easy enough to pass a bike to an LBS expert .... but then the problem is, how do we know the LBS mechanic is an expert and not some lazy bodger? We have to understand something of what the LBS mechanic fixed otherwise how do you know that it is fixed?

I do get that point of view but I also don't understand why it only seems to apply to bikes that need to be simple and "fixable by the home mechanic" and have a degree of elegance and purity and not be complicated...? If I take my car to a garage or bike to a shop, I expect the mechanic to explain and maybe show me what is wrong, I do not expect or need to understand every aspect of my car in order for the garage to fix it.

We return to the point that the vast majority of people riding bikes do not have the time, space, tools, resources, knowledge or interest in maintaining their bike themselves - same as people don't maintain, fix or fettle with their car, computer and home plumbing. I know this forum has some genuine experts on all manner of bike fixing and bike tech but that is absolutely not representative of the bicycle-riding public.

For something to be simple, it doesn't have to mean a basic wires and levers device that can be fixed in the back end of Mongolia using a penknife and a pair of pliers. You can create a simple-to-use device (like a Rohloff hub) that is very complicated and not user-serviceable but that makes life for the rider much easier. Same with this - it's a basic electric motor with some added gear-changing software that is very complicated and not user-serviceable but makes life for the rider much easier.

Its not hard to agree with what you say - but we should also recognise the "price" of remaining ignorant (or, put more nidely, unable to learn through lack of time and a vast array of subjects, not to mention their functions being black-boxed). It's very easy to gain access to things that we don't have the competence to control because of our ignorance about how they function, inclusive of an ignorance about their dangers.

For example, anyone can buy a table saw, chain saw or angle grinder then do themselves some serious damage because there's no real education included to stop the novice falling foul of the many dangers unless they learn about and understand them in terms of how their actions using the things can create such dangers. The printed blurb that comes with such things covers only a tiny fraction of the possible dangers, usually in an inadequate fashion such as tiny print using lots of (to a novice) mysterious terminology.

To a degree, bicycles are like this, presenting to the novice a host of control-requirements that they can have little of no understanding of unless they take the trouble and make the effort to learn them, both theoretically and practically via use, preferably monitored by an expert. (As Cycling UK tries to arrange; as did the cycling proficiency test).

If the bicycle is sold as fully-automated, this encourages the notion that the buyer need learn nothing about cycling other than how to sit on it without falling off. But failing to understand all sorts of automated functions and the consequences of them being applied in various ways for various cycling situations can be dangerous.

All that doesn't mean that there isn't a place for automation of various bicycle functions. But there is a lot to be said for learning how they work and how to use them for the best via understanding and experiencing more primitive, non-automated functions of the kind that the fab new tech will otherwise leave as a mystery to the novice.

Good points as always. Regarding tools, I suspect most people would think the best ppe if using a bench grinder and attempting to sharpen or grind something would be a pair of stout gloves..... WRONG. Likewise when bike riding is the subject, I've heard numerous times (from 'casual' ie not club riders) that using the front brake should be avoided lest we go over the handlebars. One guy had a nasty accident (on a moped) when a car (probably going too close) drove into him off after his rear wheel slid from under him. His explanation of the incident included (I don't use the front brake etc), so it begged the question of how culpable he, himself was? I didn't ask the question though.

[rareposter]

Likewise when bike riding is the subject, I've heard numerous times (from 'casual' ie not club riders) that using the front brake should be avoided lest we go over the handlebars.

I've heard that a few times when I've been ride-leading.
A rider once overshot a junction at the bottom of a descent (thankfully nothing coming the other way!) but when we advised that they needed to moderate their speed a lot more, look ahead etc, the rider said they didn't want to use the front brake "because I'll go over the handlebars".

Took a lot of persuasion that whatever info they'd been reading online (and such problems almost invariably arise from reading "training advice" online) was utter nonsense.
Back on the subject of gearing, most of the riders in wildly incorrect gears have read stuff online about how they need to be in a low gear going uphill - so as the road rises they continue straining their "flat / downhill" gear along for as long as possible until their cadence is down in the low double digits then eventually bang the chain as far left as it'll go with the accompanying crunches and grinds as the chain protests bitterly at having to go across 10+ sprockets under such load.
They've read that for downhills they need a high gear so back it goes again to the right as soon as they can.

I've seen mechs ripped off because of that on several occasions.

Personally I think there's a strong argument that a lot of beginners should be on auto gears while they learn to ride because that would at least force the right range of cadence and remove the need to think about gearing while they learn the basics. Once up to speed on how things should feel, then we can move onto manual gearing.

[fastpedaller]

here's an auto system available for sale!

https://bankruptbikeparts.co.uk/product ... d53f&_ss=r

[PT1029]

Re (not) front braking. I see loads of bikes at work, I am for ever replacing their rear brake pads, hardly ever have to even adjust the front brake. I do tell them tht most of the braking power is on the front brake.

Re use of gears. I recall once someone leaving his gear change too late (a short sharp up hill). His (attempted) gear change was followed by an "Oh bugger" as he keeled over. I look at his (9s) chain. On the top of the cassette the chain was on the top (smallest) sprocket. Underneath it was on the lowest (biggest) sprocket, with the chain running diagonally across all the intermediate sprockets.
In it's own way, quite impressive!

[Cugel]

when civilisation goes titsup (about 2026)

Ah, so all this is about what the Americans call “prepping”.

Ha ha - I always thought them preppers were crazed gun loons convinced they were about to be either abducted by aliens or sent for processing in a soylent green factory by "the gummint". In fact, it seems they might have a point, even if the cause of a growing need to fend for oneself are not quite as they imagined.

On the other hand, there's a good case for proposing that its "gummints" along with their puppet masters, the finance capitalists and big business barstewards, who are primarily the cause of the looming war of all against all.

Meself, I'm hoping that my practical skills will at least make me worth keeping alive albeit as a slave in some Welsh Warlord's New Model Dictatorship. I was really hoping that Blighty wouldn't reach the cusp of our slide up the incompetence slope to the point where we begin to slide down the other side of the hysteresis curve into disaster until 2050, when I would be 101. But its looking more like 2030 every day ..... .