Automatic gears for bicycle

[Cugel]

Personally I think there's a strong argument that a lot of beginners should be on auto gears while they learn to ride because that would at least force the right range of cadence and remove the need to think about gearing while they learn the basics. Once up to speed on how things should feel, then we can move onto manual gearing.

Well .... maybe ..... .

The thing I like about derailleur gears is that they're "honest" in that they show explicitly how they work, unlike hub gears (or auto gears) that hide the mechs in a case. Derailleur gears are rather like those cut-away steam engines you can view in The National Railway Museum. Without the cutaway, a steam engine is a mysterious thing to anyone except the makers and the poor folk that have crawl about inside cleaning them.

[Manc33]

I saw one on a GCN video a while back.

The guy riding it said it wasn't that bad, although it wasn't a replacement for changing gears yourself. Weird stuff.

[Biospace]

...
Mpg has always remained better for vehicles with a manual 'box than an automatic 'box... and personally I find driving a manual 'box far more engaging and rewarding than an automatic....
...
It's a documented fact that manual cars have a better mpg, and I know from my driving experience that this is true.
An automatic car will always have to work through each gear in order. When I drive I don't have to do that...
...
No matter how advanced the suto' box is, because I can actually choose my gear selection, i will always achieve a better mpg.

Admittedly these decisions take a little more thought which keeps me focused on my driving - the issue which seems to have escaped everyone's mind is that by making a car easier to drive, the driver less focused on driving it, and as a result not paying attention to the conditions in which they are driving - which makes everyone less safe.

It's nowhere near as black and white as that, although very small engines do not suit traditional automatics well although but CVTs are ideal for them. For years I drove a car in which in real world situations the automatic versions were more economical than the manual, to this day I choose our automatic car unless towing something. They're just so much better at most things.

I used to believe that manual transmissions were better in snow, since you can set off in second and progressively declutch if there was a danger of engine compression locking up wheels on the overrun, but most traditional automatics put down the power more gently and smoothly (and I'm not conjuring up people who create head nodding at every clutch operation), have a taller first gear because of the torque converting fluid flywheel and so on.

I've yet to find a situation where manuals work better in snow and mud.

[Biospace]

I’m beginning to understand now:

- every child should be educated by spending their infancy living with hunter-gatherers, or maybe early subsistence farmers;

- primary school should be replaced by a period living with farmers producing some surplus value and having access to some imported goods and techniques, including perhaps bronze and iron working, and maybe water and wind power, and perhaps letterpress printing and gunpowder;

- senior school should be replaced by a series of short sub-apprenticeships covering all the technologies of the first two or three phases of the Industrial Revolution (including bicycles); and,

- possibly university might bring them up to date with technologies devised in the past century or so.

At the end of all this, they will be fully rounded individuals, because they’ve built-up familiarity with living without, and then with, every single one of the long-superseded technologies in human history, which must be a good thing, although I’m less than totally sure why.

What a different world that would make. As a compromise for modern 'office/laptop Man', perhaps there should be a balance of Cugel theory with modern schooling.

[rareposter]

The thing I like about derailleur gears is that they're "honest" in that they show explicitly how they work, unlike hub gears (or auto gears) that hide the mechs in a case.

Yes and that leads people to attempt to fix them. The sheer number of times I have heard and seen "well I tried to fix it myself by adjusting..." in bike shops is unbelievable. And it invariably makes the problem worse.
There's an in joke in the industry about prices for fixing things:



The worst messes I've seen and worked on in bike shops have always been from idiots who've tried to fix it themselves.
It's part of the reason I'm a fan of internal cables, integrated parts, disc brakes, 1x and Di2. It's a lot simpler for the consumer and a lot less likely a) to go wrong in the first place and b) that they'll attempt to "fix" it if it does go wrong.

[cycle tramp]

Likewise when bike riding is the subject, I've heard numerous times (from 'casual' ie not club riders) that using the front brake should be avoided lest we go over the handlebars.

Personally I think there's a strong argument that a lot of beginners should be on auto gears while they learn to ride because that would at least force the right range of cadence and remove the need to think about gearing while they learn the basics. Once up to speed on how things should feel, then we can move onto manual gearing.

We are, at this point still talking about bicycles, right? The two wheel things which are slightly more mechanical than a wheel barrow, but not mechanical enough to be a motor scooter?

Only it took me about 30 minutes to get the hang of friction gear levers and a more then a few revolutions around the estate where I grew up. I was 12 at the time. The idea that teenagers or adults need 'training bicycles' with automatic transmissions before moving onto manual gears is kinda... belittling....

(As too is the idea that someone other than a professional bike mechanic can't fix bikes- it's a frame, a couple of levers, some wheels, some cabling and a few bearings - it's a bike not a space shuttle)

Especially if they are an adult and have already understood the concept of gears. what they probably need is the space and freedom to actually get some experience of using them and actually reading the conditions of the road so that they can shift in advance.

[plancashire]

Personally I think there's a strong argument that a lot of beginners should be on auto gears while they learn to ride because that would at least force the right range of cadence and remove the need to think about gearing while they learn the basics. Once up to speed on how things should feel, then we can move onto manual gearing.

Well .... maybe ..... .

The thing I like about derailleur gears is that they're "honest" in that they show explicitly how they work, unlike hub gears (or auto gears) that hide the mechs in a case. Derailleur gears are rather like those cut-away steam engines you can view in The National Railway Museum. Without the cutaway, a steam engine is a mysterious thing to anyone except the makers and the poor folk that have crawl about inside cleaning them.

Pedalling back on topic... Many people who ride bikes probably do not want to know how the gears work, so this advantage of derailleurs is of no interest to them. What is of interest is easy gear changing, low maintenance, reliability and protection from knocks and bangs. Manual hub gears are a good half-way step to full automation. You can use a full chain guard or belt drive on them too.

My wife had a bike with derailleur gears and she had difficulty changing down quickly enough on sudden steep slopes, such as bridges. The combination of front and rear changers was too much. She'd stall and be unable to change gear and have to walk. With Rohloff hub gears she manages hills much better and almost never stalls. I rest my case, m'lud.

[Biospace]

My daughter hates derailleur gears for the simple fact she can't change gear while the cranks aren't turning. Her next bike will have a SA 3-sp, she has already tried my Shopper and loved the gears which she termed 'automatic'.

Here's an intriguing solution, https://www.pinkbike.com/news/a-closer- ... ncept.html

[plancashire]

...
Here's an intriguing solution, https://www.pinkbike.com/news/a-closer- ... ncept.html

Lots of exposed bits to collect muck and go wrong. Pinion is the answer, or will be when they make it fully automatic.

[cycle tramp]

My daughter hates derailleur gears for the simple fact she can't change gear while the cranks aren't turning. Her next bike will have a SA 3-sp, she has already tried my Shopper and loved the gears which she termed 'automatic'.

Here's an intriguing solution, https://www.pinkbike.com/news/a-closer- ... ncept.html

Yeah - having looked at the video again - has anyone else noted that the bike's actually in the stand and not being ridden? That to me is at least an orange warning that something isn't working right. i wonder, if you actually try and ride it, the torque needed to propell the bike forward, can't be transmitted through the jockey wheels at the end if the stubs, as they will just spin on their mountings.

I mean, I hope I'm wrong (if only because the benefit of that system will be a rear wheel with less dish), but a prototype system being shown on a bike stand ain't the same thing as a prototype system being ridden.

[rareposter]

Yeah - having looked at the video again - has anyone else noted that the bike's actually in the stand and not being ridden? That to me is at least an orange warning that something isn't working right. i wonder, if you actually try and ride it, the torque needed to propell the bike forward, can't be transmitted through the jockey wheels at the end if the stubs, as they will just spin on their mountings.

The inventor does claim to have ridden it on a MTB. But yes, I agree with other comments - too many moving parts to collect muck, wear, go out of adjustment....

My wife had a bike with derailleur gears and she had difficulty changing down quickly enough on sudden steep slopes, such as bridges. The combination of front and rear changers was too much.

This is very common - it's one of the main drawbacks of a 3x system in spite of the many people on here (a specialist forum) saying how wonderful they are. It's extra complexity that many many everyday consumers simply can't get their head around. On this side, pushing that lever makes the gear harder but on that side, pushing the equivalent lever makes the gear easier.
Most kids bikes for example come with far too many gears (and often far too high as well).

The idea that teenagers or adults need 'training bicycles' with automatic transmissions before moving onto manual gears is kinda... belittling....

Most people have NO interest in it! As soon as you get out of the relatively small "enthusiast" / performance market and onto utility, leisure, commercial, everyone wants a simple to use bike that works and that they don't need to think about or "maintain". 99% of the everyday folk riding bicycles couldn't even tell you how many gears their bike has, never mind the ratios. And quite a lot of people simply don't change gear or only use 2-3 of them. There's a huge amount to be said for making bikes much much easier to use - that does not necessarily mean "simple" as in back to the basics of exposed wires - it just means the absolute bare minimum to operate safely and effectively and not require any thought or tinkering or fettling.

Mid-mount motor, belt drive, automatic hub gear, disc brakes. The absolute ultimate in the simple to use utility / leisure / commercial cycle market.

[cycle tramp]

The idea that teenagers or adults need 'training bicycles' with automatic transmissions before moving onto manual gears is kinda... belittling....

Most people have NO interest in it! As soon as you get out of the relatively small "enthusiast" / performance market and onto utility, leisure, commercial, everyone wants a simple to use bike that works and that they don't need to think about or "maintain". 99% of the everyday folk riding bicycles couldn't even tell you how many gears their bike has, never mind the ratios.

Up until my last meeting with my doctors I had to interest in my heart, how it works or blood sugar. Following my meeting and facing a battery of different tests, I made it my mission to find out as much as possible- research is still on going, needless to say that for the moment I have made a number of changes to my current diet and will no doubt make more adjustments as required.

The sad fact is that many people have no interest in anything and will spend their days sleep walking through their lives, from their birth to the end if their days... afraid, timid and anxious.

My message is this; Wake up - learn stuff - be interested in as much as possible - overcome your challenges - you will lead a much fuller, more detailed and above all more meaningful life! Do it now for it may end quicker than you had planned!!

[Cugel]

Likewise when bike riding is the subject, I've heard numerous times (from 'casual' ie not club riders) that using the front brake should be avoided lest we go over the handlebars.

Personally I think there's a strong argument that a lot of beginners should be on auto gears while they learn to ride because that would at least force the right range of cadence and remove the need to think about gearing while they learn the basics. Once up to speed on how things should feel, then we can move onto manual gearing.

We are, at this point still talking about bicycles, right? The two wheel things which are slightly more mechanical than a wheel barrow, but not mechanical enough to be a motor scooter?

Only it took me about 30 minutes to get the hang of friction gear levers and a more then a few revolutions around the estate where I grew up. I was 12 at the time. The idea that teenagers or adults need 'training bicycles' with automatic transmissions before moving onto manual gears is kinda... belittling....

(As too is the idea that someone other than a professional bike mechanic can't fix bikes- it's a frame, a couple of levers, some wheels, some cabling and a few bearings - it's a bike not a space shuttle)

Especially if they are an adult and have already understood the concept of gears. what they probably need is the space and freedom to actually get some experience of using them and actually reading the conditions of the road so that they can shift in advance.

Indeed.

Although I've seen some owners make a bit of a bodge to their bike bits, the worst bodges seem to emanate from bike shops, who these days sometimes seem motivated by making money rather than fixing bikes. (Both would be better). I'm sure there are good LBS bike mechanics but I'm also sure that there's lots of poor ones, either because of incompetence or don't-really-care-ism.

[jimlews]

The thing I like about derailleur gears is that they're "honest" in that they show explicitly how they work, unlike hub gears (or auto gears) that hide the mechs in a case.

Yes and that leads people to attempt to fix them. The sheer number of times I have heard and seen "well I tried to fix it myself by adjusting..." in bike shops is unbelievable. And it invariably makes the problem worse.
There's an in joke in the industry about prices for fixing things:



The worst messes I've seen and worked on in bike shops have always been from idiots who've tried to fix it themselves.
It's part of the reason I'm a fan of internal cables, integrated parts, disc brakes, 1x and Di2. It's a lot simpler for the consumer and a lot less likely a) to go wrong in the first place and b) that they'll attempt to "fix" it if it does go wrong.

Once upon a time...
I took my new bicycle frame & forks to a bike shop and watched in horror as the "mechanic" used a length of scaffold pole in an attempt to install the crown race, cracking chunks off it in the process.
I've since invested in the correct tools and now do the job myself - even though having to do the job is a rare occurrence. It was worth the expense just to undo the "mechanics" botched attempt and properly redo it myself .
So, while there are undoubtedly many fine bike mechanics, not all bike mechanics are competent and not all give a damn.
Caveat Emptor & all that.

[cycle tramp]

The thing I like about derailleur gears is that they're "honest" in that they show explicitly how they work, unlike hub gears (or auto gears) that hide the mechs in a case.

Yes and that leads people to attempt to fix them. The sheer number of times I have heard and seen "well I tried to fix it myself by adjusting..." in bike shops is unbelievable. And it invariably makes the problem worse.
There's an in joke in the industry about prices for fixing things:



The worst messes I've seen and worked on in bike shops have always been from idiots who've tried to fix it themselves.
It's part of the reason I'm a fan of internal cables, integrated parts, disc brakes, 1x and Di2. It's a lot simpler for the consumer and a lot less likely a) to go wrong in the first place and b) that they'll attempt to "fix" it if it does go wrong.

Once upon a time...
I took my new bicycle frame & forks to a bike shop and watched in horror as the "mechanic" used a length of scaffold pole in an attempt to install the crown race, cracking chunks off it in the process.
I've since invested in the correct tools and now do the job myself - even though having to do the job is a rare occurrence.

To be fair, if all the bike shop is doing is removing the old worn or broken part and replacing it with a new part- I believe that makes them 'fitters' rather than 'mechanics'