Do we really understand what’s happening to the cycle trade?

[Bonzo Banana]

I remember seeing a Cube mountain bike in a local dealer it was about £650 and had a short frame warranty, low rider maximum weight and the saddle post was already scratched by the poor milling of the internal surface of the seat tube and was made in Bangladesh. It was massively inferior to a Halford's mountain bike at £500 which even had an air front shock.

When I bought my 2017 Cube Acid on sale at £650 down from about £800 from an LBS it was the better choice from a Halfords Voodoo ( can't remember which model -- think it's discontinued now ) at around £600. The two deciding factors were sram gears on the voodoo which I detest and although the voodoo was slightly lighter than the Cube it was made so by extremely light rims.

To be clear the voodoo had the double chain ring so the front mech had to be changed by reaching under the rear mech thumb trigger to find the front mech thumb trigger which I would assume to be more awkward than the shimano thumb finger method which I find very ergonomic and intuitive.

In 2018 Cube Acid went Sram single chain ring which was a bad mistake ( it was the fashion coming in at the time ) but the worst aspect for me though is using the sram double thumb triggers -- just stupid on a mountain bike as your hand position is more important on the grips as you negotiate through a trail.

I certainly can't argue against you there I am also not a fan of SRAM drivetrains especially the cheaper versions which to be honest is the only SRAM drivetrains I have experience of. My local dealer at the time probably wouldn't have had a discount of £150 off the Cube. I've never owned a Voodoo bike from Halfords but I think they generally still have the higher weight limits, lifetime frame warranty and generally more overbuilt frames than Cube. Halfords despite their huge sales in the UK have had very little in the way of frame recalls compared to most brands. I did a quick scan for cheap entry level Cube mountain bikes and this came up but its weirdly configured with mudguards, lights and rack and seems to be aimed somewhere between mountain bike and gravel. It's got a entry level Tourney drivetrain and terrible Suntour forks with only 28mm stanchions. Probably not a fair comparison but generally I find Cube bikes heavily compromised compared to Halfords bikes at similar money but I'm often comparing Carrera models rather than Voodoo. I think there is a licensing arrangement for Voodoo bikes.

https://www.cyclelane.co.uk/m1b169s370p ... _GB/103749

[Cowsham]

I remember seeing a Cube mountain bike in a local dealer it was about £650 and had a short frame warranty, low rider maximum weight and the saddle post was already scratched by the poor milling of the internal surface of the seat tube and was made in Bangladesh. It was massively inferior to a Halford's mountain bike at £500 which even had an air front shock.

When I bought my 2017 Cube Acid on sale at £650 down from about £800 from an LBS it was the better choice from a Halfords Voodoo ( can't remember which model -- think it's discontinued now ) at around £600. The two deciding factors were sram gears on the voodoo which I detest and although the voodoo was slightly lighter than the Cube it was made so by extremely light rims.

To be clear the voodoo had the double chain ring so the front mech had to be changed by reaching under the rear mech thumb trigger to find the front mech thumb trigger which I would assume to be more awkward than the shimano thumb finger method which I find very ergonomic and intuitive.

In 2018 Cube Acid went Sram single chain ring which was a bad mistake ( it was the fashion coming in at the time ) but the worst aspect for me though is using the sram double thumb triggers -- just stupid on a mountain bike as your hand position is more important on the grips as you negotiate through a trail.

I certainly can't argue against you there I am also not a fan of SRAM drivetrains especially the cheaper versions which to be honest is the only SRAM drivetrains I have experience of. My local dealer at the time probably wouldn't have had a discount of £150 off the Cube. I've never owned a Voodoo bike from Halfords but I think they generally still have the higher weight limits, lifetime frame warranty and generally more overbuilt frames than Cube. Halfords despite their huge sales in the UK have had very little in the way of frame recalls compared to most brands. I did a quick scan for cheap entry level Cube mountain bikes and this came up but its weirdly configured with mudguards, lights and rack and seems to be aimed somewhere between mountain bike and gravel. It's got a entry level Tourney drivetrain and terrible Suntour forks with only 28mm stanchions. Probably not a fair comparison but generally I find Cube bikes heavily compromised compared to Halfords bikes at similar money but I'm often comparing Carrera models rather than Voodoo. I think there is a licensing arrangement for Voodoo bikes.

https://www.cyclelane.co.uk/m1b169s370p ... _GB/103749

At the time I bought the cube it's frame was much more refined than any of the Halfords offerings and the gear on it much better so when I found it on offer it was a no brainer ie it had XT groupset and proper shimano hydraulics and rock shock TK remote lock out air forks.. just everything was better.

The light rims on the voodoo I thought were it's Achilles heel cos I went to see a second hand one about a year old on gumtree but found it had both rims buckled. The width of the rim itself was the problem -- the cube acid rim was wider and much stronger.

The cube acid is still my favorite bike -- or more accurately my go to bike for every day use because it'll go anywhere and it's comfortable. Gears are sweet as a nut and the bike runs silently along ( I hate a noisy bike ) It's a very strong bike since it's the one I've had 3 bad offs from and the most damage was having to replace a bent derailier hanger at about £2. I've had to replace the smallest two sprockets on the cassette ( £10 each ) and of course the chain but only cos of the miles I put on them cos it's my favorite bike.

[plancashire]

Bikes were pretty much sorted by the 1990s, when everything had indexed gears, sufficient gear range, and was made of decent lightweight materials. "Progress" since has occasionally been useful but has largely been for progress' sake, with a proliferation of unwanted new standards, short-life components or frames, extremely high prices for things like tyres* and a general move towards a throwaway culture.

*why does a tiny bike tyre good for 3,000 miles cost as much as a huge car tyre good for 30,000 miles?

The neodymium magnet was invented in 1984 and migrated to bike dynamos in the 1990s. Efficient white LEDs came later than that. Both have revolutionised bike lighting, dynamos not so much in UK.

The Rohloff 14-speed hub gear came in 1996. Uncommon in UK.

The Pinion gearbox came in 2012. Almost unheard of in UK.

E-bikes are very recent, more so in UK.

What about ahead headsets, thru-axles, hydraulic brakes, disc brakes, non-compressible cables, belt drive, etc, etc?

I have a high-quality custom late 1980s bike and a recent one. Just about everything has improved.

Perhaps you should get out more?

[cycle tramp]

Bikes were pretty much sorted by the 1990s, when everything had indexed gears, sufficient gear range, and was made of decent lightweight materials. "Progress" since has occasionally been useful but has largely been for progress' sake, with a proliferation of unwanted new standards, short-life components or frames, extremely high prices for things like tyres* and a general move towards a throwaway culture.

The neodymium magnet was invented in 1984 and migrated to bike dynamos in the 1990s. Efficient white LEDs came later than that. Both have revolutionised bike lighting, dynamos not so much in UK.

The Rohloff 14-speed hub gear came in 1996. Uncommon in UK.

The Pinion gearbox came in 2012. Almost unheard of in UK.

E-bikes are very recent, more so in UK.

What about ahead headsets, thru-axles, hydraulic brakes, disc brakes, non-compressible cables, belt drive, etc, etc?
I have a high-quality custom late 1980s bike and a recent one. Just about everything has improved.
Perhaps you should get out more?

To be fair to Rogerziller, he did say occasionally useful... the re-birth of dynamo lightning occurred outside of the usual component manufacturers as did the rolhoff hub and the pinion gear box... and in the case of both hubs, they are as far as I can tell generally not fitted to the main stream of bicycles...

..disc brakes were with us since 1970s, but whilst their performance has increased, in order for a frame to withstand the stresses, both the fork and rear stays have increased their rigidity which for some makes a more lifeless frame... whilst the hydraulic brake may be a delight to some, for others it's an unwanted complication...
..the belt drive, whilst for some may be a boon, fails for others on efficiency..

For many of use, however cycle design is actually very conservative. Failing to push any boundaries beyond that which has already been established by the norm of motorised transport...

...after all, surely rather than a e-bike, it makes more sense to develop an e-recumbent bike, allowing the rider a chance of weather protection, and greater ease of being able to dismount? Perhaps even safer than an up-roght bike? And being more aerodynamic than am upright bike, perhaps even carrying a greater range in some weather conditions.

..if the stress of braking using a disc brake is purely carried in one fork, then why have the other fork, and fit the bike with a mono-blade?

..if we have belt drive.. then why not go the whole hog and have a chain run in an oil bath?

Given that rohloff were the only manufacturers who placed the gear selection mechanism next to the hub, rather than at the selector - why hadn't shimano followed suit with their range of internally geared hubs?

Why? Because the bike industry is driven not by engineers but rather those people who have failed to become artists... they are designed by designers who drive to work and drive everywhere... they sit at their laptops and design the same old upright bike over and over and over again, changing only a few angles, the wheel set and the components to fit the current purchasing trends.

..and their creations are then given to those people who failed to become authors for a living and are not yet ready to sell their soul to advertising. They are bike journalists who make stuff up about the bike, and use engineering words in the hope we won't notice....or to satisfy the editors' need to support which ever manufacturer has taken out the most advertising space

The last radical thing to come our of cycling was around 1930 called the velo-car... everything else has been tinkering around the edges..

[rogerzilla]

LEDs, fair enough, but they're accessories.

Rohloffs have been around since 1998. They are, and will always be, a niche product due to price, weight and efficiency.

Pinion gearboxes are another niche, heavy product that will disappear except maybe on e-bikes.

E-bikes aren't really bikes.

Threadless headsets, hydraulic brakes and incompressible cables date from the 1990s or earlier.

Disc brakes and the associated through axles (solving a problem created by disc brakes) are shiny and nice to look at but, apart from muddy MTB use, don't solve any particular problem and add new ones of their own. I've had five different types, cable and hydraulic, and now I don't use them at all.

The cycle trade has to sell new bikes and it does this by coming up with shiny stuff. People are attracted to novelties and features, not quality or longevity.

[rareposter]

E-bikes aren't really bikes.

Umm...well...they are.

Putting to one side the slightly separate argument of the illegal / modified subset, e-bikes are legally regarded as bicycles, the people using them are definitely "cycling" and it's also the only segment of "the cycle industry" that's growing and at strong year-on-year figures too.

And as towns and cities slowly / painfully start the push back against car domination, e-mobility is going to be one of the huge helping factors in that, especially in the last-mile cargo market. City-wide hire fleets (like Lime, Dott etc) are overwhelmingly e-bikes now because they're far more attractive to far more people.

People who can't ride non-powered bikes (for (eg) medical reasons, old age etc) can usually ride e-bikes. They allow families and mixed ability groups to ride together and can be great for that first step of weight loss or exercise for people who haven't been active for a while.

[LittleGreyCat]

As an aside I found out recently that you can get an eBike legally modified and certified to ride without pedalling.
I thought all the whiz about kids were illegal, but apparently not all may be.

[simonhill]

As an aside I found out recently that you can get an eBike legally modified and certified to ride without pedalling.
I thought all the whiz about kids were illegal, but apparently not all may be.

.....but won't that make it a moped with all the necessary legislation (licence, insurance, helmet, etc)?

I remember reading that there was someone in London who certifies non standard e-bikes to make them road legal.

[Jdsk]

As an aside I found out recently that you can get an eBike legally modified and certified to ride without pedalling.
I thought all the whiz about kids were illegal, but apparently not all may be.

.....but won't that make it a moped with all the necessary legislation (licence, insurance, helmet, etc)?

I remember reading that there was someone in London who certifies non standard e-bikes to make them road legal.

Recent discussion of start assist and L1e-A and type approval:
viewtopic.php?t=157613

Jonathan

[UpWrong]

As an aside I found out recently that you can get an eBike legally modified and certified to ride without pedalling.
I thought all the whiz about kids were illegal, but apparently not all may be.

.....but won't that make it a moped with all the necessary legislation (licence, insurance, helmet, etc)?

I remember reading that there was someone in London who certifies non standard e-bikes to make them road legal.

Conversions which limit assistance to 25kmh are legal even with a throttle. Must also be 250W max.

[plancashire]

LEDs, fair enough, but they're accessories.
...

Lights are essential to ride in the dark. I am much happier riding at night since I fitted good LED lighting. For some it likely makes the difference between riding and not.

Are gears, mudguards, luggage systems, suspension saddles and all the other bits I see on city bikes also accessories - or maybe what gets normal people out on bikes?

[Bmblbzzz]

What gets normal people out on bikes is the belief that they will still be normal afterwards. This is a mistaken belief, but we don't let on.

[rogerzilla]

I quite liked my old Schmidt E6 with a halogen bulb - narrow beam, but fabulous focus and penetration. LEDs give far more light but I wish they would drop the colour temperature. The bluish light gets swallowed up by wet roads. I suppose it's fundamentally a blue LED with a phosphor coating to convert some to yellow, and the more phosphor, the less raw output.

It's the same in cars - the latest LED headlights are ok on dry roads but are pretty disappointing in the wet.

[hoogerbooger]

So what drives the lack of mudguards on bikes? and will they be rediscovered? ( with the price of laundry detergent these days ever rising)

Is it image conscious cyclists? The industry thinking they can't make them feel cool......or are there practical reasons you can't make a gravel bike ( the SUV of cycling)...with effective guards?

( my retrogrouch 26" mountain bike tourer has off roaded for 25 years with fullish guards.....and my cycling clothes are still clean....!)

[JohnR]

So what drives the lack of mudguards on bikes? and will they be rediscovered? ( with the price of laundry detergent these days ever rising)

Saves a few £££s on the bike building cost, gives a lower advertised weight and reduces the wind drag.