Cycling UK Forum

cycle tramp wrote: ↑16 Dec 2023, 10:12pm Despite all of this, the known designs, the respect for the product and even known customers SRAM discontinued the production of internal hub..

However- it didn't happened overnight (as I thought I had remembered it) SRAM did make an attempt to redesign a number of hubs and released them under the name 'i-motion', but they weren't that well received- after a number of years, SRAM withdrew from internally geared hubs - many of us, still don't understand why SRAM just didn't continue with the production of the existing models as originally designed and refined by Sach.

Sales were declining, the derailleur drievtrain was dominant, in the end the suppliers to SRAM (all the parts for the hubs) pulled the plug just as much as SRAM did. They were only selling maybe 100,000 units a year down from a million or more in the late 90's.

Plus Shimano absolutely dominated the IGH market (with Sturmey Archer as a notable addition) and Rohloff came along in late 90's as well and their 14-sp IGH killed off the unreliable SRAM/Sachs 12-sp. And the rest of the Sachs stuff wasn't great either, it was complicated and heavy. As a relatively poor cousin to Shimano and Sturmey Archer, it was never destined to take over the world. Hats off for trying and all that but three companies producing basically the same concept, 2 get it to work, one doesn't - that one is going to fail and that's across any industry. It's not that SRAM are the big bad corporate in all of this, there's a lot of factors at play.

I don’t know about Sachs IHG, but the quality of the Sachs components on different bikes I’ve had from the 70s and 80s has been decidedly uninspiring. Whether they had different ranges, cheap to posh, I don’t know, but compared with contemporary mid-range stuff from Shimano and was it Microace? (the ones used by Specialized on mid-range bikes), the bits I’ve seen were not very good.

VinceLedge wrote: ↑16 Dec 2023, 9:04pm I think there is still a increase in people cycling, but it seems mainly to be older people starting cycling on ebikes, which now seem to be the mainstay of our LBS

Sounds like a great opportunity.

Can anyone in the business tell us any more about the requirements and implications for sales and servicing, and making money from sales and servicing?

Thanks

Jonathan

Jdsk wrote: ↑17 Dec 2023, 10:25am Can anyone in the business tell us any more about the requirements and implications for sales and servicing, and making money from sales and servicing?

I think it's very dependent on the usage of the bike in question.

My e-cargo bike (Bosch mid-mount Cargo Line motor) is used on short local trips. The longest ride I've ever done on it was 15 miles to show it to a friend. Mostly it's 5 miles at a time kind of thing. Sometimes with a fair old load on it. But it has required zero servicing or maintenance other than charging it. Everything is well protected away from the elements and/or not user-serviceable anyway. I couldn't tell you what the gear ratios are on it (nor do I care).

My road and gravel bikes gets much more use, much longer rides and I look after them much more diligently; the drivetrain is kept clean, the frame gets a wipe down so in terms of "maintenance", the road & gravel bikes get more of my time in spite of being ostensibly "simpler" bikes.

One thing that bike shops will have to take into account is the sheer weight and bulk of e-bikes, especially e-cargo. They don't fit in regular work stands, they can't be hung on regular storage hooks, quite often they don't even fit easily through a normal shop door!

Friends we have , who didn't really cycle much before, have got ebikes and take them to the bike shop for everything, they only maintenance they do is clean them.

rareposter wrote: ↑17 Dec 2023, 8:43am

cycle tramp wrote: ↑16 Dec 2023, 10:12pm Despite all of this, the known designs, the respect for the product and even known customers SRAM discontinued the production of internal hub..

And the rest of the Sachs stuff wasn't great either, it was complicated and heavy. As a relatively poor cousin to Shimano and Sturmey Archer, it was never destined to take over the world.

Eh? What are you talking about? Are you just making stuff up now? Sach was the dominant producer of components for the German and Netherland utility bike market... there were many who though that their two speed coaster hub, their 3 speed and 5 speed hubs were of better quality than the sturmey archer units.

cycle tramp wrote: ↑17 Dec 2023, 1:01pm Sach was the dominant producer of components for the German and Netherland utility bike market... there were many who though that their two speed coaster hub, their 3 speed and 5 speed hubs were of better quality than the sturmey archer units.

Nearholmer said the same as me just a few posts up. ^^
Some of their stuff back in the 60's / 70's was legendary - that doesn't mean it stayed that way and they certainly weren't competing with Shimano by the 90's / 00's.

rareposter wrote: ↑17 Dec 2023, 1:13pm

cycle tramp wrote: ↑17 Dec 2023, 1:01pm Sach was the dominant producer of components for the German and Netherland utility bike market... there were many who though that their two speed coaster hub, their 3 speed and 5 speed hubs were of better quality than the sturmey archer units.

Nearholmer said the same as me just a few posts up. ^^
Some of their stuff back in the 60's / 70's was legendary - that doesn't mean it stayed that way and they certainly weren't competing with Shimano by the 90's / 00's.

If you had taken the trouble to critically read Nearholmer's post, you would have read on the opening sentence 'I don't know about Sach IHG' - now I can't find anything on the net which tells me that Sach's 3 and 5 speed hub's were a crock of $%^& - so if you have any personal experience of them, now is as good as time as any to share it with us..

I still think many people here miss the point. I do when talking about things I am very keen on. Most people don't give a toss about bikes. Most people, I reckon, don't give a toss about the world. Not sure I do really. I'll be dead in 30 years max (well I hope so) and what happens after that is none of my business . Interest is academic not personal and that isn't enough to do a lot is it?
We all want different things.

rareposter wrote: ↑17 Dec 2023, 11:00am

Jdsk wrote: ↑17 Dec 2023, 10:25am Can anyone in the business tell us any more about the requirements and implications for sales and servicing, and making money from sales and servicing?

I think it's very dependent on the usage of the bike in question.

My e-cargo bike (Bosch mid-mount Cargo Line motor) is used on short local trips. The longest ride I've ever done on it was 15 miles to show it to a friend. Mostly it's 5 miles at a time kind of thing. Sometimes with a fair old load on it. But it has required zero servicing or maintenance other than charging it. Everything is well protected away from the elements and/or not user-serviceable anyway. I couldn't tell you what the gear ratios are on it (nor do I care).

My road and gravel bikes gets much more use, much longer rides and I look after them much more diligently; the drivetrain is kept clean, the frame gets a wipe down so in terms of "maintenance", the road & gravel bikes get more of my time in spite of being ostensibly "simpler" bikes.

One thing that bike shops will have to take into account is the sheer weight and bulk of e-bikes, especially e-cargo. They don't fit in regular work stands, they can't be hung on regular storage hooks, quite often they don't even fit easily through a normal shop door!

VinceLedge wrote: ↑17 Dec 2023, 11:19am Friends we have , who didn't really cycle much before, have got ebikes and take them to the bike shop for everything, they only maintenance they do is clean them.

Thanks, both.

Jonathan

I'm not in the cycle trade so I don't have a definitive answer to the question posed by the OP.

My THEORY is that the problem cited for the Cannondale bike in the OP and probably other brands is a result of offshore manufacture and an opaque and labyrinthine supply chain.
Do the retailers or the importers actually know where the framesets are made ? Has any representative of either ever inspected the factory where they are made ? I wonder...

Perhaps the feeble excuses in lieu of service, are because nobody at the 'front brand' company is able to collar anyone at the manufacturer because they don't know who is building the things.
All speculation, of course.

With prices currently depressed as people try to shift excess stock for example the Moore Large liquidation is still ongoing https://www.johnpyeauctions.co.uk/Brows ... s=7&page=0 (which highlights the extent of over-ordering) and some bargains in the recent Wiggle Black Friday sale then it's harder for others to sell at prices when leave a margin for good support. Any smaller outfit with spare cash and storage space could take advantage of the cheap stock to fill their own shelves and subsequently sell when prices pick up.

JohnR wrote: ↑18 Dec 2023, 8:39am Any smaller outfit with spare cash and storage space could take advantage of the cheap stock to fill their own shelves and subsequently sell when prices pick up.

They can't!

Shops have their own brands and dealer network, they can't just go buying random stock to shift if they feel like it. It takes a huge amount of money, time and resources (in terms of storage space, stocktaking etc), none of which shops have just sitting around and there are issues of warranty etc if things go wrong because the shop has bought outside its dealer network and can't just send it back to the supplier.

jimlews wrote: ↑17 Dec 2023, 6:19pm Do the retailers or the importers actually know where the framesets are made ? Has any representative of either ever inspected the factory where they are made ? I wonder...

Yes - it's VERY tightly controlled, manufacturers have all manner of NDAs, confidentiality agreements, exclusivity clauses and so on with factories and they all treat it very seriously. There's colossal amounts of money in terms of R&D, frame moulds, expertise, training and so on gone into it all (and the factories in the far east are the best in the world). Manufacturers need to protect that investment and they do their best to crack down on the "grey manufacture" stuff that goes on as well (like "Chinarello", the Pinarello copies but most manufacturers have been subject to fakes at one point or another). That's why the QC process is so controlled now.

rareposter wrote: ↑18 Dec 2023, 9:07am

JohnR wrote: ↑18 Dec 2023, 8:39am Any smaller outfit with spare cash and storage space could take advantage of the cheap stock to fill their own shelves and subsequently sell when prices pick up.

They can't!

Shops have their own brands and dealer network, they can't just go buying random stock to shift if they feel like it. It takes a huge amount of money, time and resources (in terms of storage space, stocktaking etc), none of which shops have just sitting around and there are issues of warranty etc if things go wrong because the shop has bought outside its dealer network and can't just send it back to the supplier.

jimlews wrote: ↑17 Dec 2023, 6:19pm Do the retailers or the importers actually know where the framesets are made ? Has any representative of either ever inspected the factory where they are made ? I wonder...

Yes - it's VERY tightly controlled, manufacturers have all manner of NDAs, confidentiality agreements, exclusivity clauses and so on with factories and they all treat it very seriously. There's colossal amounts of money in terms of R&D, frame moulds, expertise, training and so on gone into it all (and the factories in the far east are the best in the world). Manufacturers need to protect that investment and they do their best to crack down on the "grey manufacture" stuff that goes on as well (like "Chinarello", the Pinarello copies but most manufacturers have been subject to fakes at one point or another). That's why the QC process is so controlled now.

(My underlining above)
Are the factories not the manufacturers ?
They have NDAs (presumably, Non Disclosure Agreements) with themselves ?

Surely, the discussion is not about industrial espionage, but accountability and the ability of the end consumer, or indeed the UK retailer to obtain redress for shoddy workmanship poor design and bad service.

If there is no channel of communication that goes any further than the importer; who may have selected product from an online menu with the option of "your logo here"; it seems to me that there is not much hope of any meaningful redress for the customer. And the offshore manufactory may never know (or perhaps care) that their product is rubbish.

When I had a bike made in 1989, I went to the workshop where it was made, I was able to see the manufacturing process and discuss my requirements. I know the name of the man who built it. I still use that bike today and if, in the interim, I had had any problems with it, I know that I would only have needed to phone the workshop.

Unfortunately, the steady decline of indigenous manufacture in the face of offshore bling has made such service virtually extinct -
as illustrated by the OP.
That is a great pity.

rareposter wrote: ↑18 Dec 2023, 9:07am

JohnR wrote: ↑18 Dec 2023, 8:39am Any smaller outfit with spare cash and storage space could take advantage of the cheap stock to fill their own shelves and subsequently sell when prices pick up.

They can't!

Shops have their own brands and dealer network, they can't just go buying random stock to shift if they feel like it. It takes a huge amount of money, time and resources (in terms of storage space, stocktaking etc), none of which shops have just sitting around and there are issues of warranty etc if things go wrong because the shop has bought outside its dealer network and can't just send it back to the supplier.

jimlews wrote: ↑17 Dec 2023, 6:19pm Do the retailers or the importers actually know where the framesets are made ? Has any representative of either ever inspected the factory where they are made ? I wonder...

Yes - it's VERY tightly controlled, manufacturers have all manner of NDAs, confidentiality agreements, exclusivity clauses and so on with factories and they all treat it very seriously. There's colossal amounts of money in terms of R&D, frame moulds, expertise, training and so on gone into it all (and the factories in the far east are the best in the world). Manufacturers need to protect that investment and they do their best to crack down on the "grey manufacture" stuff that goes on as well (like "Chinarello", the Pinarello copies but most manufacturers have been subject to fakes at one point or another). That's why the QC process is so controlled now.

That's mostly right (and I write as someone who does have some involvement with the industry). There are independent retailers who could buy up some of that Moore Large liquidation stock and sell it for a handsome profit - but if the product's faulty and the customer brings it back, the retailer is going the carry the can: they will have no-one to send the faulty bike back to and could end up with an unsaleable item that they paid hundreds of pounds for. That might be a risk worth taking for cheap parts and accessories (though I've been singularly unimpressed by the quality of the XLC-branded range which makes up a large part of the Moore Large auction stock) but it's a big risk with high-price items.

As a independent I can buy most parts and accessories for resale, but very few entire bikes - and certainly not bikes from well-known brands. The distribution network is controlled closely, and in return retailers know they can expect backup from the manufacturer, as well as improved margins if they sell enough of a particular brand's bikes.

Few retailers will ever get to see where the frames come from, though some brands do organise trips for their more favoured retail shops/chains.