Cycling UK Forum

Are the factories not the manufacturers ?

Not always, no. The manufacturers, eg Specialized or Giant, often outsource manufacture to third-party factories who make frames for many brands. Not all brands do this, but many do.

In very many consumer product industries these days, the “named brand” acts as designers, and commissions manufacture from others, and that can involve one other party being contracted to supply complete, finished and packaged product, or it can involve the brand managing multiple suppliers, orchestrating the sourcing of parts and the assembling of them. Some brands even buy product designed by others, but have it labelled and packaged in their house style. A great number of products work like this, from bikes to biscuits (I visited Fox’s biscuit factory, and watched M&S Christmas Selections being made and packaged a few years ago). And, that’s without mentioning sub-contractors such as components makers, logistics firms etc!

Locally, whilst many traditional bike shops have closed, there has been an increase in the number of people who just do repairs. These seem to do a roaring trade, many new cyclists don’t have much of a clue about doing even basic maintenance on their bikes, or just don’t want to do maintenance. Many newer members of my club take the bike to these repairers to have chains and cassettes changed and to have tyres changed.

Cowsham wrote: ↑16 Dec 2023, 1:33pm

Jdsk wrote: ↑16 Dec 2023, 12:00pm

rogerzilla wrote: ↑16 Dec 2023, 11:31am Bikes were pretty much sorted by the 1990s, when everything had indexed gears, sufficient gear range, and was made of decent lightweight materials. "Progress" since has occasionally been useful but has largely been for progress' sake, with a proliferation of unwanted new standards, short-life components or frames, extremely high prices for things like tyres* and a general move towards a throwaway culture.

*why does a tiny bike tyre good for 3,000 miles cost as much as a huge car tyre good for 30,000 miles?

There's an enormous opportunity in both sales and service from the new popularity of eBIkes.

Jonathan

If some standards were set eg

bolt patterns for mid drive motors / frames

Battery and charger connections

Battery shapes and sizes

But every manufacturer wants to be the next shimano setting the trend everyone else has to follow -- it's a huge gamble which won't benefit manufacturers or consumers until a standard is arrived at.

Hmmm that was set many years ago. Mid drive motors, at least all the ones I've seen and fitted to various bikes, fit in place of the bottom bracket and use a similar thread size to the BB removed to fit the motor.

As for what's happening to the cycle trade, isn't it largely a case of over-trading during the Covid related cycling boom, with little or no thought of what might happen when that peculiar set of circumstances ended.

pete75 wrote: ↑21 Dec 2023, 12:35pm

Cowsham wrote: ↑16 Dec 2023, 1:33pm

Jdsk wrote: ↑16 Dec 2023, 12:00pm
There's an enormous opportunity in both sales and service from the new popularity of eBIkes.

Jonathan

If some standards were set eg

bolt patterns for mid drive motors / frames

Battery and charger connections

Battery shapes and sizes

But every manufacturer wants to be the next shimano setting the trend everyone else has to follow -- it's a huge gamble which won't benefit manufacturers or consumers until a standard is arrived at.

Hmmm that was set many years ago. Mid drive motors, at least all the ones I've seen and fitted to various bikes, fit in place of the bottom bracket and use a similar thread size to the BB removed to fit the motor.

That maybe true for kits but we're talking about factory built ebikes where the motor / gearbox assembly is bolted into a cradle which is part of the frame and sometimes a stressed member not an after market mid drive kit to fit around an existing bb.

As described in this video I posted up thread

https://youtu.be/PN505EbwWT0?feature=shared


Demand for factory ebikes has been growing since long before covid but got a short Turbo boost during covid.

Cowsham wrote: ↑21 Dec 2023, 1:50pm

That maybe true for kits but we're talking about factory built ebikes where the motor / gearbox assembly is bolted into a cradle which is part of the frame and sometimes a stressed member not an after market mid drive kit to fit around an existing bb.

As described in this video I posted up thread

https://youtu.be/PN505EbwWT0?feature=shared


Demand for factory ebikes has been growing since long before covid but got a short Turbo boost during covid.

Never seen any of those things. On all the batteries and motors I've fitted have used waterproof xt60 connectors, simple robust and reliable.

pete75 wrote: ↑21 Dec 2023, 2:41pm

Cowsham wrote: ↑21 Dec 2023, 1:50pm

That maybe true for kits but we're talking about factory built ebikes where the motor / gearbox assembly is bolted into a cradle which is part of the frame and sometimes a stressed member not an after market mid drive kit to fit around an existing bb.

As described in this video I posted up thread

https://youtu.be/PN505EbwWT0?feature=shared


Demand for factory ebikes has been growing since long before covid but got a short Turbo boost during covid.

Never seen any of those things. On all the batteries and motors I've fitted have used waterproof xt60 connectors, simple robust and reliable.

Yes used them for many years on electric model aircraft. Before that it was T-Dean connectors but I find the ones supplied and molded onto the yose kits wiring very good --- with some self amalgamating tape as an extra precaution ( a roll is only about £3 ) water ingress is very unlikely.

But this is all about what is happening to the cycle trade and factory made ebikes are becoming a large part of that now. Point is the format race between manufacturers while it is running is not good for most of them and us consumers either.

I'm reminded from my own experience and electronics background of the different video recording ( before that -- just players ) formats there were and how Sony who were very powerful at the time lost that race in the end. It'll be something clever like the way vhs found that consumers valued longer recording / playback time and movie availability than the better quality of betaMax

I think I understand the cycle industry. They got greedy during the pandemic and have been slow at adapting since. Anybody with a pea for a brain could foresee demand falling post COVID, but not, apparently the bike industry.

Ayseven wrote: ↑26 Dec 2023, 7:19pm I think I understand the cycle industry. They got greedy during the pandemic and have been slow at adapting since. Anybody with a pea for a brain could foresee demand falling post COVID, but not, apparently the bike industry.

I don't think its as simple as greed. I guess the huge increased demand for bikes in covid times just when production fell due to covid meant less factory capacity and having to outbid other importers for factory capacity which forced prices up. Maybe they felt bike demand would continue to increase as people tried to live more environmentally friendly lives due to global warming and didn't realise it was purely related to covid.

Now we are faced with too much stock swilling about which means big discounts for consumers but more difficult for bike importers and manufacturers to make a decent margin as so much discount stock.

Ultimately it will stabilise and there will be survivors and non survivors of this time.

Personally I tend to only buy secondhand bikes or bargain new bikes. I don't really support local bike shops and buy most of my components online. I always enjoy looking around bike shops though to see what is available. I'm a heavy rider though so not really interested in lightweight performance bikes which independent bike shops focus on. My local independent bike shops want £500 for often very low spec freewheel based bikes where as Halfords would offer a much higher spec bike for £350. I remember seeing a Cube mountain bike in a local dealer it was about £650 and had a short frame warranty, low rider maximum weight and the saddle post was already scratched by the poor milling of the internal surface of the seat tube and was made in Bangladesh. It was massively inferior to a Halford's mountain bike at £500 which even had an air front shock. It's no surprise though as Halford's buy their bikes directly from factories so its a factory to retailer direct business model very simple logistics. Cube is a German based importer, they buy from a factory, then ship to Germany I guess, then import into the UK to a wholesaler possibly in the UK, the dealer buys from them. Lots of people all needing their margin. Personally I'm very much focused on product rather than brand. I generally almost ignore brands and just look for who is offering the best spec for the money. However I totally understand others are more influenced by marketing or which bikes they see in sporting events to them its more of a lifestyle or cosmetic choice and brand is important to them.

I feel like as the UK becomes poorer as we are overwhelmed by our huge debts and servicing those debts becomes more and more painful people will be looking far more for value. Yes there will be still a percentage of people with high disposable incomes but they will become less and less as the economy moves towards a IMF bailout at some point.

TrevA wrote: ↑21 Dec 2023, 11:55am Locally, whilst many traditional bike shops have closed, there has been an increase in the number of people who just do repairs. These seem to do a roaring trade, many new cyclists don’t have much of a clue about doing even basic maintenance on their bikes, or just don’t want to do maintenance. Many newer members of my club take the bike to these repairers to have chains and cassettes changed and to have tyres changed.

And many of them will come to you at home or at work. This can be the most convenient arrangement.

There's an additional bonus of someone who knows more than you coming to your home: if you pick the right one you can join in and discuss it and learn new skills.

Happy Christmas

Jonathan

Jdsk wrote: ↑27 Dec 2023, 10:17am

TrevA wrote: ↑21 Dec 2023, 11:55am Locally, whilst many traditional bike shops have closed, there has been an increase in the number of people who just do repairs. These seem to do a roaring trade, many new cyclists don’t have much of a clue about doing even basic maintenance on their bikes, or just don’t want to do maintenance. Many newer members of my club take the bike to these repairers to have chains and cassettes changed and to have tyres changed.

And many of them will come to you at home or at work.

Jonathan

And take half the fun out of cycling -- no thanks.

Bonzo Banana wrote: ↑27 Dec 2023, 8:23am I remember seeing a Cube mountain bike in a local dealer it was about £650 and had a short frame warranty, low rider maximum weight and the saddle post was already scratched by the poor milling of the internal surface of the seat tube and was made in Bangladesh. It was massively inferior to a Halford's mountain bike at £500 which even had an air front shock.

When I bought my 2017 Cube Acid on sale at £650 down from about £800 from an LBS it was the better choice from a Halfords Voodoo ( can't remember which model -- think it's discontinued now ) at around £600. The two deciding factors were sram gears on the voodoo which I detest and although the voodoo was slightly lighter than the Cube it was made so by extremely light rims.

To be clear the voodoo had the double chain ring so the front mech had to be changed by reaching under the rear mech thumb trigger to find the front mech thumb trigger which I would assume to be more awkward than the shimano thumb finger method which I find very ergonomic and intuitive.

In 2018 Cube Acid went Sram single chain ring which was a bad mistake ( it was the fashion coming in at the time ) but the worst aspect for me though is using the sram double thumb triggers -- just stupid on a mountain bike as your hand position is more important on the grips as you negotiate through a trail.

Jdsk wrote: ↑27 Dec 2023, 10:17am[snip]
There's an additional bonus of someone who knows more than you coming to your home: if you pick the right one you can join in and discuss it and learn new skills.

Happy Christmas

Jonathan

In the bad old days, we charged $75 on hour for repairs, $125 an hour if you wanted to watch and kibbitz during
the repair.

scottg wrote: ↑27 Dec 2023, 1:11pm

Jdsk wrote: ↑27 Dec 2023, 10:17am[snip]
There's an additional bonus of someone who knows more than you coming to your home: if you pick the right one you can join in and discuss it and learn new skills.

In the bad old days, we charged $75 on hour for repairs, $125 an hour if you wanted to watch and kibbitz during the repair.

I've seen enamel signs in workshops to the same effect.

Cheap at the price! : - )

Jonathan

Looks like Brexit benefit is saving the bike industry according to the Department for Business and Trade.........

"Government touts Frog Bikes as post-Brexit "success" story, just months on from company blaming Brexit "friction" for £500,000 losses."

https://road.cc/content/news/government ... ory-305861