Cycling UK Forum

They just don't. If you read all the proper trials going back to before Covid, they fail. This has nothing to do with conspiracy theories or being pro or anti-vaxx etc.
You can say... well if people only wore them properly....

That's not what the tests test. They test an intervention where you get a group of people to wear them and another matched group to not wear them. They fail these tests.

There's a Cochrane Review published in January 2023:

"Do physical measures such as hand-washing or wearing masks stop or slow down the spread of respiratory viruses?"
https://www.cochrane.org/CD006207/ARI_d ... ry-viruses

To say that they just don't work greatly overstates the current level of evidence.

Jonathan

Statement of interest: I've worked with one of the authors.

Mrs Mick F was head-achey yesterday evening.
I was in bed sound asleep at 8pm. She came to bed early (for her) at midnight, and complained about how poorly she felt. We snuggled down and we both a good night's sleep.

I was up at 05:30, and woke her at 07:40 with a cuppa. She still wasn't right so she got up and tested, and she has Covid!
Me, I reckon I'm out of it now but reluctant to test as I don't want to get false hopes. I'll try it tomorrow.

Just come in after cutting logs and splitting them. I couldn't even contemplate doing work like that a couple of days ago. I feel fine, and it didn't wear me out in the slightest.

She has gone back to bed, and I've just checked, and she's sound asleep. She'll wake up in her own good time.
Much like I was earlier in the week. I spent more time asleep than awake.

My taste and sense of smell are subdued. They'll come back eventually ................ I am the voice of experience! This is Covid No2 for me.

Good news!

Tested just now .............. and I'm clear!
I'm off for a dog-walk later and buying some milk and a bottle of wine .............. and me and doggie will call in at the Rising Sun at noon, before heading home.

As it's a Friday, the Riser is packed early evening for "The Five o'Clock Club". Me and Mrs Mick F normally attend, but it'll be just me this evening. Much to tell people ............ and maybe I'm not the only one who's suffered this past week. There could be some of the regulars staying away.

My/our symptoms are all the symptoms you get with a heavy cold, plus lack of taste and smell. Maybe other folk with those symptoms haven't considered Covid. Had we not had a kit available, we wouldn't have bothered testing so may not have known.

How many people regularly test I ain't got a clue. People do if they need to as part of their jobs of course, but we senior retired people may not do at all considering how inoculated up to the hilt we are.

Jdsk wrote: ↑10 Jan 2024, 8:13pm There's a Cochrane Review published in January 2023:

"Do physical measures such as hand-washing or wearing masks stop or slow down the spread of respiratory viruses?"
https://www.cochrane.org/CD006207/ARI_d ... ry-viruses

To say that they just don't work greatly overstates the current level of evidence.

Jonathan

Statement of interest: I've worked with one of the authors.

The evidence in such tests musn't be that you presume they work. It's the opposite. The null hypothesis.

Gearoidmuar wrote: ↑12 Jan 2024, 10:42am

Jdsk wrote: ↑10 Jan 2024, 8:13pm There's a Cochrane Review published in January 2023:

"Do physical measures such as hand-washing or wearing masks stop or slow down the spread of respiratory viruses?"
https://www.cochrane.org/CD006207/ARI_d ... ry-viruses

To say that they just don't work greatly overstates the current level of evidence.

The evidence in such tests musn't be that you presume they work. It's the opposite. The null hypothesis.

This is highly controversial in the world of evidence-based medicine. There's also a (Bayesian) school that starts with hypotheses that seem likely to be true and sets the a priori probability accordingly.

But I don't think that this is relevant to this review or its conclusions.

And my point was about level of evidence and not overstating it when there is so much uncertainty.

Jonathan

Piglet tested positive yesterday, had a rough couple of days, but a bit brighter today. I'm trying to stay clear,

yostumpy wrote: ↑12 Jan 2024, 12:24pm Piglet tested positive yesterday, had a rough couple of days, but a bit brighter today. I'm trying to stay clear,

Sure it's not swine flu ?

Cowsham wrote: ↑12 Jan 2024, 12:43pm

yostumpy wrote: ↑12 Jan 2024, 12:24pm Piglet tested positive yesterday, had a rough couple of days, but a bit brighter today. I'm trying to stay clear,

Sure it's not swine flu ?

Haha, no, but she did catch this some years ago, was in a bit on a state.

yostumpy wrote: ↑12 Jan 2024, 2:13pm

Cowsham wrote: ↑12 Jan 2024, 12:43pm

yostumpy wrote: ↑12 Jan 2024, 12:24pm Piglet tested positive yesterday, had a rough couple of days, but a bit brighter today. I'm trying to stay clear,

Sure it's not swine flu ?

Haha, no, but she did catch this some years ago, was in a bit on a state.

My 13y old son almost died with it in Nov 2019 so I shouldn't be jesting.

Jdsk wrote: ↑12 Jan 2024, 10:51am

Gearoidmuar wrote: ↑12 Jan 2024, 10:42am

Jdsk wrote: ↑10 Jan 2024, 8:13pm There's a Cochrane Review published in January 2023:

"Do physical measures such as hand-washing or wearing masks stop or slow down the spread of respiratory viruses?"
https://www.cochrane.org/CD006207/ARI_d ... ry-viruses

To say that they just don't work greatly overstates the current level of evidence.

The evidence in such tests musn't be that you presume they work. It's the opposite. The null hypothesis.

This is highly controversial in the world of evidence-based medicine. There's also a (Bayesian) school that starts with hypotheses that seem likely to be true and sets the a priori probability accordingly.

But I don't think that this is relevant to this review or its conclusions.

And my point was about level of evidence and not overstating it when there is so much uncertainty.

Jonathan

This is not a formal comparison but these are facts, nonetheless.
Most masked country. South Korea. Also had highest percentage of population test positive.
Sweden had no masked mandates. Did as well as anyone else.

Explanation. Masks as worn by the population don't work.
In fact, most public health medical interventions don't work.

Gearoidmuar wrote: ↑13 Jan 2024, 8:00am

Jdsk wrote: ↑12 Jan 2024, 10:51am

Gearoidmuar wrote: ↑12 Jan 2024, 10:42am
The evidence in such tests musn't be that you presume they work. It's the opposite. The null hypothesis.

This is highly controversial in the world of evidence-based medicine. There's also a (Bayesian) school that starts with hypotheses that seem likely to be true and sets the a priori probability accordingly.

But I don't think that this is relevant to this review or its conclusions.

And my point was about level of evidence and not overstating it when there is so much uncertainty.

Jonathan

This is not a formal comparison but these are facts, nonetheless.
Most masked country. South Korea. Also had highest percentage of population test positive.
Sweden had no masked mandates. Did as well as anyone else.

Explanation. Masks as worn by the population don't work.
In fact, most public health medical interventions don't work.

Sweden did not "do as well as anyone else".

It consistently had higher death rates than other Nordic countries.

Aside from the fact that you obviously can't take one intervention and assume that alone was the cause of differences between countries.

Brandolini's law cautions me from continuing...

Gearoidmuar wrote: ↑10 Jan 2024, 8:01pm They just don't. If you read all the proper trials going back to before Covid, they fail. This has nothing to do with conspiracy theories or being pro or anti-vaxx etc.
You can say... well if people only wore them properly....

That's not what the tests test. They test an intervention where you get a group of people to wear them and another matched group to not wear them. They fail these tests.

Yes. The most powerful method for learning more about this is systematic review of multiple randomised controlled trials. So I cited the best review of those that I could find, upthread.

Gearoidmuar wrote: ↑13 Jan 2024, 8:00am This is not a formal comparison but these are facts, nonetheless.
Most masked country. South Korea. Also had highest percentage of population test positive.
Sweden had no masked mandates. Did as well as anyone else.

So you then switched to a less powerful method. That used cherrypicking of outcomes in different countries (and see previous post on deaths in Nordic countries) and changed the intervention from mask wearing to national policy on mask wearing. This opens up any findings to risk of selection bias and to two big confounders: other aspects of national policies (as above) and the actual effect of policies on mask wearing.

Jonathan

I didn't really. There have only been two RCTs of mask wearing and Covid. Just two. One in Denmark and another in Bangladesh.
There have been loads more on Flu and on other infections. I am not uttering something which suddenly came out of my head, but the opinions of top epidemiologists in this field. Fauci e.g., is not an epidemiologist nor is Birx.
The real man to listen to in this regard is Vinay Prasad who is prof of Epid in UCLASF and has no axe to grind.

Gearoidmuar wrote: ↑13 Jan 2024, 2:11pm I didn't really. There have only been two RCTs of mask wearing and Covid. Just two. One in Denmark and another in Bangladesh.
There have been loads more on Flu and on other infections. I am not uttering something which suddenly came out of my head, but the opinions of top epidemiologists in this field. Fauci e.g., is not an epidemiologist nor is Birx.
The real man to listen to in this regard is Vinay Prasad who is prof of Epid in UCLASF and has no axe to grind.

Please could you cite the relevant studies.

Thanks

Jonathan