'Easier' chainrings for Shimano 5800 - how?

[Brucey]

..... I was probably looking for an excuse to treat myself to a new(er) bike.

so you don't fancy a less expensive (and dare I say it) better solution?

[rareposter]

One option might be not to buy a newer bike, but to buy a new frame and transplant everything from the Kinesis. If you can put most of your budget towards the frame rather than a complete bike, you might end up with a much nicer bike for your money.

I'm less a fan of doing that these days, there's so many parts to try and get right for compatibility that it ends up being a total nightmare of thinking about but then discarding lots of options because of changes. The OP's bike is 10 years old so - although it's got the 5800 groupset which was the first iteration of 105 going 11sp, I'm willing to bet there's a host of other non-compatible things now like thru-axles, maybe disc-brake-only frames, etc.

Frame swaps used to be fairly straightforward back in the day, they're a nightmare now, especially trying to transplant 10yr old kit onto a new frame.

The Kinesis will be well worth doing up with a new drivetrain and the more appropriate gears. 100% agree with you about the consumable aspect of that.
Then buy a new bike as well.

[Glen]

If you decide on a new chainset here are some alternatives with road chain line;
1. https://shop.fullspeedahead.com/en/cran ... e-crankset. I use one of these on my 105 equiped road bike together with an 11-34 cassette; note square taper and restricted to a 30 tooth small chain ring.
2. https://www.dolan-bikes.com/sugino-0x29 ... ket-black/ the 'silly money' option!
3. Dixna La chainset, similar to but probably cheaper than the Sugino, https://alexscycle.com/products/dixna-l ... m-to-170mm, one would have to buy rings but it is a sensible 5 arm 110-74 bcd design so plenty of choice.
Also see viewtopic.php?t=153478

[Brianjeff50]

One option might be not to buy a newer bike, but to buy a new frame and transplant everything from the Kinesis. If you can put most of your budget towards the frame rather than a complete bike, you might end up with a much nicer bike for your money.

I'm less a fan of doing that these days, there's so many parts to try and get right for compatibility that it ends up being a total nightmare of thinking about but then discarding lots of options because of changes. The OP's bike is 10 years old so - although it's got the 5800 groupset which was the first iteration of 105 going 11sp, I'm willing to bet there's a host of other non-compatible things now like thru-axles, maybe disc-brake-only frames, etc.

Frame swaps used to be fairly straightforward back in the day, they're a nightmare now, especially trying to transplant 10yr old kit onto a new frame.

The Kinesis will be well worth doing up with a new drivetrain and the more appropriate gears. 100% agree with you about the consumable aspect of that.
Then buy a new bike as well.

I think this is part of the point for me: the Kinesis has ‘issues’ that I’ve lived with but wouldn’t mind losing - toe-overlap + over-sharp steering + insufficiently low gears (for this old codger) make steep climbs a twitchy business especially when loaded. I run it on 28mm tyres which has greatly improved comfort at the expense of very tight mudguard clearance and needing long drop brakes that aren’t impressive at stopping. Oh and the riding position is a tad aggressive.
Apart from all that it’s great - tough as old boots, taken me on a LEJOG and east-west and tolerates my slack attitude to maintenance. It’s also lively to ride so I can still feel reasonably quick even though I’m not.
A more relaxed ride and discs do tempt me though

[cyclop]

Sounds like the Spa set-up is the best option. I guess now I just have to decide whether it’s worth spending out on chainset, bottom bracket, cassette and chain or letting the old beast soldier on for a while and put my pocket money towards a newer bike instead.

"old beast ....." how very dare you !! Crikey,my repurposed Mercian is 50yrs old! I,m rebuilding
an Italian frame into a "gravel" bike....60yrs old.10yrs ????Not even broken in yet

[Brucey]

.......I I run it on 28mm tyres which has greatly improved comfort at the expense of very tight mudguard clearance and needing long drop brakes that aren’t impressive at stopping......

needless to say,but you have not fundamentally changed your capacity for braking by fitting different calipers; the reach is the same now as it always has been. if your brakes have ended up worse, it either means you bought crap brakes or (more likely) you have paired newer NSSLR levers with older design (lower MA) calipers. Which levers and calipers do you have exactly?

[Brianjeff50]

.......I I run it on 28mm tyres which has greatly improved comfort at the expense of very tight mudguard clearance and needing long drop brakes that aren’t impressive at stopping......

needless to say,but you have not fundamentally changed your capacity for braking by fitting different calipers; the reach is the same now as it always has been. if your brakes have ended up worse, it either means you bought crap brakes or (more likely) you have paired newer NSSLR levers with older design (lower MA) calipers. Which levers and calipers do you have exactly?

I have Shimano 105 levers (presumably of the same 5800 series as the rest of the set-up) and Tektro R539 brakes.
Part of my issue with the original, pre-28mm tyres brakes (Shimano R650 IIRC) was that I couldn’t physically fit the inflated tyres between the calipers - I had to fit wheels and then inflate the tyres. Maybe it’s my imagination but the Tektros don’t seem to work as well.
FWIW I also have pretty small hands so even with the levers adjusted, braking is a stretch. Another attraction of discs.

PS good to have your wisdom back on the forum.

[Brucey]

..... Maybe it’s my imagination but the Tektros don’t seem to work as well. FWIW I also have pretty small hands so even with the levers adjusted, braking is a stretch. Another attraction of discs.....

from memory tektro R539 calipers are 'old pull' (low MA) and 5800 brake levers are NSSLR type (also low MA). If so, that would explain your poor brakes. I think maybe you should have higher MA calipers paired with those levers and it isn't just your imagination.

[roubaixtuesday]

I think this is part of the point for me: the Kinesis has ‘issues’ that I’ve lived with but wouldn’t mind losing - toe-overlap + over-sharp steering + insufficiently low gears (for this old codger) make steep climbs a twitchy business especially when loaded. I run it on 28mm tyres which has greatly improved comfort at the expense of very tight mudguard clearance and needing long drop brakes that aren’t impressive at stopping. Oh and the riding position is a tad aggressive.
Apart from all that it’s great - tough as old boots, taken me on a LEJOG and east-west and tolerates my slack attitude to maintenance. It’s also lively to ride so I can still feel reasonably quick even though I’m not.
A more relaxed ride and discs do tempt me though

I have what sounds like an almost identical bike to yours (8 year old kinesis racelight, 5800 groupset) and have long drop calipers. The brakes are impeccable, very easy to lock up.

I'm not sure exactly what calipers they are, or how to find out.

If not a caliper issue, might be cable friction?

But you can definitely get excellent rim braking with those levers and long drop brakes.

I run 25mm tyres for extra mudguard clearance.

[Brucey]

.....I'm not sure exactly what calipers they are, or how to find out.......

the calipers will almost certainly be marked somewhere, probably on the back.

[roubaixtuesday]

.....I'm not sure exactly what calipers they are, or how to find out.......

the calipers will almost certainly be marked somewhere, probably on the back.

I was having a distinct sense of deja vu - turns out we had this exact conversation in 2015!

viewtopic.php?p=1556957#p1556957

BR-R650 is stamped on the caliper.

[Brianjeff50]

..... Maybe it’s my imagination but the Tektros don’t seem to work as well. FWIW I also have pretty small hands so even with the levers adjusted, braking is a stretch. Another attraction of discs.....

from memory tektro R539 calipers are 'old pull' (low MA) and 5800 brake levers are NSSLR type (also low MA). If so, that would explain your poor brakes. I think maybe you should have higher MA calipers paired with those levers and it isn't just your imagination.

You’ve introduced me to another world of pain.
I left 1960s cycling and returned to the far more complicated world of 21st century cycling. Back in the day we had Weinmann centre pull brakes because they looked cool and thought no more about it.
Now I’m off to google NSSLR and MA.

[slowster]

Probably better to search the forum first (and most of the Google hits will probably be this forum).

From memory, the only(?) medium drop caliper designed for use with NSSLR brakes is the TRP 957, but a search of the forum should confirm.

https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m7b0s100p36 ... %28pair%29

[Brucey]

MA = mechanical advantage (in the context of brakes) and
NSSLR = new super shimano linear response

[Brianjeff50]

..... Maybe it’s my imagination but the Tektros don’t seem to work as well. FWIW I also have pretty small hands so even with the levers adjusted, braking is a stretch. Another attraction of discs.....

from memory tektro R539 calipers are 'old pull' (low MA) and 5800 brake levers are NSSLR type (also low MA). If so, that would explain your poor brakes. I think maybe you should have higher MA calipers paired with those levers and it isn't just your imagination.

I've looked through the Shimano compatibility charts and they say - if I've read them properly - that the only long drop brakes compatible with 5800 levers are BR-R650 with 'braking power slightly less than standard combination'.
And these are too tight to allow the wheel with inflated tyres to pass through.
At some point Tektro R539 apparently claimed compatibility but this seemingly vanished from their spec sheets.
Maybe I'll pop my old BR-R650s back on just to try them out and compare.