Just how long will it take to turn this ship around?

[al_yrpal]

Wetherspoon profits jump as Covid recovery continues - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68636250

Looks like we are on the path to recovery or alternately one can take the Baronesses pessimistic view that we are simply drowning our sorrows in despair!

Al

[PH]

Personally, I’m in favour of progressive income tax (higher rates for higher bands of income), but would rather see that done overtly than by the semi-covert erosion of allowances, even if the net result is the same.

Better to find a mechanism to tax wealth rather than income, if you're wealthy enough you don't have much need for taxable income.

[pliptrot]

Many of these people work very hard and deserve high earnings.

Al

Typical Tory trope. The truth is rather more complex. Those who work the hardest are those who actually do anything (and they are not FTSE100 directors, to indicate some of the more egregious examples of snouts in the trough to the cost of so many others) such as nurses, dustmen, those in hospitality, care, etc.etc. etc. - and they invariably have low earnings. If you can explain how people can be worth paying them mulitples of a surgeon's salary I'd be delighted to hear it. How inflated salaries are not properly taxed is an obscenity given the dire state of British society in 2024.

[853]

How inflated salaries are not properly taxed is an obscenity given the dire state of British society in 2024.

The rate of tax for anyone earning over £125140 is 45 percent. What rate of tax do you propose, and what percentage of these people do you think would move to a different country with lower taxes if the 45 percent rate was increased?


https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates

[Carlton green]

How inflated salaries are not properly taxed is an obscenity given the dire state of British society in 2024.

The rate of tax for anyone earning over £125140 is 45 percent. What rate of tax do you propose, and what percentage of these people do you think would move to a different country with lower taxes if the 45 percent rate was increased?

https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates

Tax rates and bands can also be found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... t-and-past
Obviously Scotland has a slightly different set of rates and we might learn from their experience - includes avoiding as well as copying.

I’m in favour of returning personal allowances to high earners, the current situation is not equitable to folk who earn a little more than £100k, as in my post up-thread.

More tax bands are needed, at say the £50k (40%), £100k (45%), £150k (50%) and £200k (60%) marks. A tax rate of 60% on income above £200k seems not unreasonable to me - payback into the society whose existence allows both such high salaries to be earned and income to be safely spent. Arguably an even higher rate would be reasonable for those captains of industry and commerce ‘earning’ in excess of £500k per year.

That some people will choose to go elsewhere is inevitable, but I do wonder whether we’d be better off without them and whether their absence would leave space for folk focussed on building a better society for them to live in rather than amassing massive personal wealth.

[Mike Sales]

Some ideas from a patriotic millionaire.
I hope Rachel Reeves is listening.

Let’s start with our broken tax system. We continue to hear about how high our taxes are, but the truth is that while our system disproportionately taxes the vast majority who get their income from work, those who are already wealthy from investments, rent and inheritances are taxed relatively lightly. Our own prime minister, who earned more than £2m last year and is married to a billionaire, pays the same effective tax rate as a teacher.

The good news is, there are plenty of ways to address this imbalance. Equalising rates of capital gains tax with income tax, so that income from wealth is taxed at the same level as income from work, would raise £16.7bn a year. Removing loopholes and reliefs from inheritance tax would raise around £1bn a year. Applying national insurance more consistently across all forms of income could raise over £30bn a year. And an annual tax on stocks of wealth would raise nearly £12bn a year. Together, a package of higher taxes on wealth could raise billions to fund cost of living support in the short term and provide essential public goods such as a strong social safety net and clean, affordable energy provision in the future.

As a member of the campaign group Patriotic Millionaires UK, I want rich people like me to pay our fair share of tax. And I’m not alone. Nearly 75% of millionaires also want higher taxes on wealth.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ich-wealth

[PH]

Some ideas from a patriotic millionaire.

It's what I said a couple of posts ago, the idea of taxing wealth rather than income. The problem is that no one has come up with a mechanism to do it. If someone's wealth is growing assets rather than income, how do you tax that? If the answer involves them relinquishing control of all or part of the asset, that's socialism. The idea of that level of state intervention scares people so much that no one proposing it stands a chance of being elected.

[Mike Sales]

Some ideas from a patriotic millionaire.

It's what I said a couple of posts ago, the idea of taxing wealth rather than income. The problem is that no one has come up with a mechanism to do it. If someone's wealth is growing assets rather than income, how do you tax that? If the answer involves them relinquishing control of all or part of the asset, that's socialism. The idea of that level of state intervention scares people so much that no one proposing it stands a chance of being elected.

Take a look at the Patriotc Millionaires' website. They are very keen on the idea.

They projected 'TAX OUR WEALTH' onto the walls of the Treasury and the Bank of England.

Patriotic Millionaires UK, a collection of British-based members of the super-rich, said that instead of considering tax cuts the chancellor should increase taxes on the richest members of society to help fund public services for all.

“We’re not about to give up on this country. We need a wealth tax now,” another message projected in 1.8-metre (6ft) high letters read. “We want it. For a better Britain.”

The imposition of a 2% tax on those with more than £10m of assets could raise £22bn a year, or more than £420m a week, they claimed. “That could pay for the average salary cost of more than 600,000 nurses a year – more than three-quarters of the UK’s nursing workforce,” the group said.

Phil White, a former business consultant and member of Patriotic Millionaires UK, said: “The whole country knows that we need a serious injection of capital to get us back on track. We have a potential £423m a week, which is currently absent from national investment revenue, because we don’t tax extreme wealth. Surely the people in the UK deserve more? For a better Britain our government should prioritise taxing those of us who can most afford it.”

I imagine that they have a lot more knowledge of the subject than thee and me.
They have very likely looked into the feasibility of a Wealth Tax before so prominently proposing it.

https://patrioticmillionaires.uk/

Patriotic Millionaires UK is a nonpartisan network of British millionaires, from multiple industries and backgrounds from across the UK. It delivers a single mission - to leverage the voice of wealth to build a better Britain by changing the system to end extreme wealth and make those with it make their fair and proper contribution.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... onaires-uk

[PH]

I imagine that they have a lot more knowledge of the subject than thee and me.

I'm sure they do, but knowledge and good ideas are not enough to get you elected. If they were we wouldn't be in this position. If you need an example of that, look at all the good ideas and level of knowledge within the Green Party and compare that with their electoral success.

[Mike Sales]

I imagine that they have a lot more knowledge of the subject than thee and me.

I'm sure they do, but knowledge and good ideas are not enough to get you elected. If they were we wouldn't be in this position. If you need an example of that, look at all the good ideas and level of knowledge within the Green Party and compare that with their electoral success.

True enough. They are now in the business of publicising the idea, which is always an important stage. If they can get the principle into the thoughts of a political party, that is very worthwhile.
The ideas of the green movement have gained traction. Recycling and wind power were completely fringe ideas when I first got involved.

[pliptrot]

How inflated salaries are not properly taxed is an obscenity given the dire state of British society in 2024.

The rate of tax for anyone earning over £125140 is 45 percent. What rate of tax do you propose, and what percentage of these people do you think would move to a different country with lower taxes if the 45 percent rate was increased?


https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates

I imagine very few would move because increases in tax. Possibly because those who prosper inordinately in the UK are mostly incompetent and drunk on their greed. They've got nowhere else to go. Would 80% tax rates make them move? If so, we'll help them pack their bags. Would any of the board of - say, Thames Water- choose to leave if their obscene remuneration was properly taxed? Look at their record -reducing investment and racking up ridiculous debts to pay shareholders, and bringing the water supply network that they run to a desperate condition- and tell me where they could go? the City of London, the privatised rail companies, et.al are all part of the plundering of the economy for the exclusive gain of those with power. Just how many children need to live in abject poverty for something to change? we are not Africa, but there are people in power who seek to benefit from making us just so. Think about what means. Norway took their oil and gas wealth into state hands. The UK -like African oil states-gave it away to the private sector. Of course, we think of Nigeria and Angola as hopelessly corrupt states, but the metric suggests Britain was -is- not much different.

[djnotts]

^^"The rate of tax for anyone earning over £125140 is 45 percent. What rate of tax do you propose, and what percentage of these people do you think would move to a different country with lower taxes if the 45 percent rate was increased?"

45% at 125K, 55 at 150, 65 at 200, 90 at 250 a good start. Let the leave if they want, but they take nothing with them. All assets forfeit.

[pete75]

Presumably you haven't heard of the Laffer curve, which states that when the tax rate goes beyond a certain rate tax revenues fall.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve

I have indeed heard of it, and know that it theorises that when the tax rate goes beyond a certain rate tax revenues fall.

Whether it is relevant or not I do not know but:
# I know people for who the taper off of family benefit at (what was until recently) £50k was a disincentive to try to earn more.
# I know people for who the removal of personal allowances at - I think - £100k is a large disincentive to try to earn more, they just go part time and particularly so if their partner is on good money or they’re not going to earn much above £100k.

Personal tax allowance is tapered at losing £1 of allowance for every £2 earned over £100,000. In other words a £10,000 a year pay rise from £100,000 will still leave you £4,000 a year better off.
One person I know well earns over £100k, indeed she often gets a tax bill over that amount. It doesn't put her off increasing the profitability of her practice. She says the government takes a lot of tax from her but public services have to paid for, and she's still left with more than enough to get by on.

[853]

45% at 125K, 55 at 150, 65 at 200, 90 at 250 a good start. Let the leave if they want, but they take nothing with them. All assets forfeit.

According to Wikipedia, (I was too young to remember), in 1974 the top rate of tax was raised to 83 percent. There was also the investment income surcharge, which raised the top rate on investment income to 98%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... at%2090%25.

I do, however, remember making toast with the gas fire by candle light in 1974. This was during the many power cuts from the three-day week working. Is that the direction you'd like to steer the ship in?

[al_yrpal]

Taxation....

Tax cuts - Keith Joseph and Maggie and continued by Labour.


Al