Cycling UK Forum

But I'm not sure bikes were always like that. They were inherently simple things that many or most people could fix themselves. Of course some people don't want to, but the idea of a bike that's so complicated that the average person can't fix basic issues seems almost like an oxymoron.

foxyrider wrote: ↑4 Apr 2024, 6:34pm
So when did you discover the soaring cost of keeping your bikes on the road?

Er... I haven't.... last weekend my chain started to skip on the smallest sprocket of my 5 speed freewheel. A quick rummage in the shed produced a new chain (which I had bought from halfords when I went in for summink else £9.00, a new old stock genuine shimano 5 speed freewheel, which I think I bought from a forum member for about £15.00 and a second hand chainring (which if turned to face the other way, had unworn teeth) for £5 from my local recycle a bike charity)... for 29 pounds I was back on the road..
..when I have a moment, I'll see if I can undo the offending sprocket from the rest of the block and if so, re-build it with fresh lubrication, a new small sprocket, and if I'm lucky I might be able to swap the 28 tooth sprocket for a 32 tooth one....

My last 1x5 speed transmission lasted 3 years and 9 months before any issue appeared... if this lasts the same then I'll be a happy person

Bike stuff... you makes your choice and pays your money.. the important thing is that we have the choice...

cycle tramp wrote: ↑5 Apr 2024, 5:50pmthe important thing is that we have the choice...

Actually...it isn't.

when I started cycling (in the 1970's) raleigh were still the world's biggest bike maker and they made products that would last some folk a lifetime. In the world of club cycling, most folk aspired to own campagnolo equipment, because it was clearly the best. But it was never inexpensive; in fact it was so expensive that I had to make do with much cheaper or secondhand stuff for years. The equipment looked simple enough to fix but in reality it often wasn't; the idea that you could fix your own bike easily was all too often a mere illusion. Of course it didn't stop anybody from trying but the reality is that I didn't really understand most of the equipment until long after I had stopped using it in anger.

BITD you could expect a good bike to last a long time before it would genuinely be old-fashioned. Today five-year-old kit oftentimes won't even bolt onto current frames, such is the relentless pace of change. The supposed 'big three' of Shimano, SRAM,and Campagnolo are effectively engaged in something of a Mexican standoff and product lifetimes have never been shorter. We may seem to have plenty of choice, but our choices are only ever there because lots of fairly ignorant people buy plenty and what they have to choose from is decided by some little grey men who are ultimately motivated by nothing but greed. Amen.

Interesting discussion. Like many on here I started fettling bikes in the 70s. 5 spd, screw on free wheels, down tube shifters, tubs, toe-clips and nail on shoe cleats. Not sure if it's rose tinted views of the sunny uplands of youth but I'm sure bike stuff lasted longer, chains, bearings, BBs, I certainly don't remember changing stuff at same frequency as I do now and never encountered torque settings for decades. The tool box has got much more in it now as well.
Have to fight hard not to be sucked along in the wake of marketing hype. Still trying to fettle stuff but it isn't always easy. Left hand 105 brifter broken recently, gear won't change back to big ring, a tab of some sort has broken off a cam or something like that. There seems to be something like 100 parts in a brifter, tiny springs etc. Solution - keep as a brake lever and am now using a boss mounted down tube lever to shift, simples. Certainly made me think about how I approach refurbs from now on. Balancing, tech convenience, with durability and fettleability.

Brucey wrote: ↑6 Apr 2024, 11:05am The supposed 'big three' of Shimano, SRAM,and Campagnolo are effectively engaged in something of a Mexican standoff and product lifetimes have never been shorter.

..so starve them of income. There are plenty bicycle component manufacturers, Hope, Middleburn, Paul Components, Sun race/ Sturmey Archer, IRD to name a few, who recognise that compatibility with other components made from other manufacturers isn't only in their best interests, it is necessary for their survival.

Those component designers from sram, shimano and campagnolo who work towards limiting and preventing such compatibility (with products from other manufacturers) should be dragged from their offices into the farmyard, tied up, laid flat on the ground, covered in tomatoes and corn and then pecked to death by turkeys (ooooh, that gonna hurt)...

cycle tramp wrote: ↑6 Apr 2024, 1:09pm Those component designers from sram, shimano and campagnolo who work towards limiting and preventing such compatibility

They actually don't. Much of SRAM and Shimano is cross-compatible to varying degrees (although why you'd choose to wilfully use mix and match from different manufacturers is another question!)
All 11sp road Shimano is entirely mix and match. All their MTB stuff is compatible within the same number of gears.

It gets even easier with Di2. All 11sp road, gravel and MTB 11sp Di2 is entirely cross-compatible; all 12sp road Di2 is cross compatible too.

7, 8 and 9sp SRAM is all completely cross-compatible.
10sp SRAM all works together across road and MTB.
10 and 11sp SRAM road is all interchangable too and SRAM's 12sp Eagle MTB range is entirely mix and match.

All the new CUES is entirely compatible across 9, 10 and 11sp - that should really help the entry level MTB / hybrid market when it starts appearing on OEM bikes, not least because it's a lot more durable too (the design has carried over from e-bikes).

But if you buy (eg) a 2x11 Shimano equipped road bike, it's perfectly possible to keep it running for many years just replacing individual 11sp parts with any other Shimano 11 sp part as and when required.

Apologies... having re-read my original post I edited it for greater clarity

(So, having looked at my transmission... the freewheel is shimano, rear hub is sun-race SA, chain is from clark's, chain ring is TA, cranks are from shimano, shifter is a 1980's friction thumbing from Sun race... that's 4 different component manufacturers, all used to cost and availability).

..for example there's nothing to prevent shimano from producing programmable electronic shifters, where the amount of cable moved can be programmed to take account of the differing spaces between each sprocket, or indeed the number of sprockets - that way you could have an electronic for any derailleur gear ever made, and probably future proof your bike....

cycle tramp wrote: ↑6 Apr 2024, 3:16pm Apologies... having re-read my original post I edited it for greater clarity

I enjoyed the bit about being pecked to death by turkeys, I'm glad you left that in!

foxyrider wrote: ↑4 Apr 2024, 6:34pm ...
And then there are the tools, okay they will get used more than this once but i've spent another £60 on bearing pullers & setters.
...

What's the alternative to individual ownership of tools that are only going to be needed occasionally? Rental, cooperatives, friends, buying and selling on, using a bike shop for that bit of the refurbishment?

In a noncycling part of my life we lend tools within a club. Value up to a few hundred pounds. Works well.

And of course buying and selling on is common for... Islabikes.

Jonathan

I long ago concluded that there were few 'special tools' I couldn't make improved versions of using just an angle grinder, drill, and welding set.

Brucey wrote: ↑6 Apr 2024, 5:32pm I long ago concluded that there were few 'special tools' I couldn't make improved versions of using just an angle grinder, drill, and welding set.

Which is all very well if you have those skills and bits of kit. The reality is that not many people can weld and skills with grinders and drills run the full gamut too. This very disparity of skills is why some few very skilled individuals can earn a crust as toolmakers. If i need/want a hammer i don't make one from scratch, its not economically viable to do so even if i had the right tools to do it, nope, i pop down to my local tool store and buy one. And so if Mr Shimano decides to use Torx 28 on everything i'll go out and buy one so that i can work on those parts, i don't buy tools willy nilly.

My toolbox has loads of 'obsolete' kit in it, even in the 70's/80's there was a huge variation in tool requirement between brands and even within brands. I think i've got 6 similar but different crank pullers, at least 4 different size cone spanners, oodles of headset spanners and more variations of BB tools than is right. (maybe i should have a clearout of old tools from the main box, i won't get rid as i do have bikes that still need some of this stuff!) My modern components rarely need anything more than a hex key set for most adjustment/repairs but when there is a special tool required, well expect a high price tag.

And of course now, one can tune gears and update software on your SRAM / Shimano derailleur with the relevant smart phone app... Or at least until it stops working at some untimely moment or worse still when outside of it's warranty !

foxyrider wrote: ↑6 Apr 2024, 6:43pm

Brucey wrote: ↑6 Apr 2024, 5:32pm I long ago concluded that there were few 'special tools' I couldn't make improved versions of using just an angle grinder, drill, and welding set.

Which is all very well if you have those skills and bits of kit. The reality is that not many people can weld and skills with grinders and drills............. My modern components rarely need anything more than a hex key set for most adjustment/repairs but when there is a special tool required, well expect a high price tag.

The main reason people say they cannot weld is that they have never tried, MIG welding of steel is childishly easy to do (I am yet to meet the person that can't be taught), and I was able to buy all the equipment required to do it (used mostly) for less than £100. Running costs can be as low as ~£20 per 5kg of deposited weld plus whatever you pay for electricity. Being able to weld is curiously liberating and I can heartily recommend it.

I transitioned away from Campag 15 years ago because of the lack of availability of parts and spares. Shimano stuff is widely available everywhere, Campag not so. I’d been using Campag since the 70’s, but they’ve failed to keep up with the competition IMO.