Cycling UK Forum

Brucey wrote: ↑6 Apr 2024, 7:46pm The main reason people say they cannot weld is that they have never tried, MIG welding of steel is childishly easy to do (I am yet to meet the person that can't be taught), and I was able to buy all the equipment required to do it (used mostly) for less than £100. Running costs can be as low as ~£20 per 5kg of deposited weld plus whatever you pay for electricity. Being able to weld is curiously liberating and I can heartily recommend it.

Realistically, most people don't have the tools, time, space, money or resources to do their own bike maintenance - how many people do you think have the tools, time, space, money or resources to buy a load of welding kit, set it up...somewhere...and sort their own tools as well?! And how is it remotely economically viable?

The point is that basic "at home" bike maintenance - like DIY or gardening - requires little more than "adequate" kit, nothing pro level cos it's not getting anything like the use that pro kit in a bike shop gets and certainly nothing knocked up on a home welding kit! And I return once more to the fact that most people don't know, don't want to know and/or don't care about anything more than the absolute basics of bike servicing anyway.

And yes, I did welding in CDT (as it was called then) in school. I have zero desire to try welding up my own tools because I have about 1000 better things to do with my time.

rareposter wrote: ↑6 Apr 2024, 8:22pm

Brucey wrote: ↑6 Apr 2024, 7:46pm The main reason people say they cannot weld is that they have never tried, MIG welding of steel is childishly easy to do (I am yet to meet the person that can't be taught), and I was able to buy all the equipment required to do it (used mostly) for less than £100. Running costs can be as low as ~£20 per 5kg of deposited weld plus whatever you pay for electricity. Being able to weld is curiously liberating and I can heartily recommend it.

Realistically, most people don't have the tools, time, space, money or resources to do their own bike maintenance - how many people do you think have the tools, time, space, money or resources to buy a load of welding kit, set it up...somewhere...and sort their own tools as well?! And how is it remotely economically viable?

The point is that basic "at home" bike maintenance - like DIY or gardening - requires little more than "adequate" kit, nothing pro level cos it's not getting anything like the use that pro kit in a bike shop gets and certainly nothing knocked up on a home welding kit! And I return once more to the fact that most people don't know, don't want to know and/or don't care about anything more than the absolute basics of bike servicing anyway.

And yes, I did welding in CDT (as it was called then) in school. I have zero desire to try welding up my own tools because I have about 1000 better things to do with my time.

I agree with Brucey...it's just so cheap to buy welding gear needed.
Most of us on here are, shall we say, of an 'older' generation(I'm Gen-X but think there are probably more 'Boomers on here) and most folk I know(especially men) have accumulated various tools/skills over the years to be able to repair almost anything!Bike maintainance aint Rocket Science and 99.99% of it is easily done at home with relatively few tools.
The problem often lies with the person doing it, or not doing it, as the case may be.
I've found the folk who complain about the rising costs are those who just can't be bothered to learn how to do it or say they don't have time!
We have recently taught a friends' daughter how to Mig and stick weld.She's 15 and picked it up in no time.OK so she's not a 'Girly' girl and is going into Engineering as a career but it just shows that anyone can do it...especially MIG!
I haven't paid a bike mechanic, nor bought an off the peg bike, for probably 20 years or so.It's just easy to build my own.As for time I work 12hr shifts,days and nights and still have time to mess with Bicycles/Motorcycles/Cars/Plumbing/Electrics/Joinery/general DIY.....it's really just a case of doing it.....and there is always time to learn!

Brucey wrote: ↑6 Apr 2024, 11:05amIn the world of club cycling, most folk aspired to own campagnolo equipment, because it was clearly the best. But it was never inexpensive; in fact it was so expensive that I had to make do with much cheaper or secondhand stuff for years.

I joined my first club in 1977. Yes, Campag was best, Record if possible. I got some second-hand Nuovo Tipo hubs, and a bike with mixed equipment including a Zeus chainset, and Shimano Crane derailleurs (what became the first Dura Ace). Later added Mark II Dura Ace brakes, again second hand from someone who packed up. But, even second hand, they were all more affordable than Campag. I still have most of them on a bike from that era.

when I started cycling (in the 1970's) raleigh were still the world's biggest bike maker and they made products that would last some folk a lifetime.

I found them really patchy. The ones I remember in the shops from the time were below average or worse. But then there were the really nice team bikes. I always wanted one of those. And, in 1990, there was a frame hanging in my LBS that I really liked, and would still be riding now, if it hadn't been the wrong size. So I bought the Dawes Imperial frame that was hanging next to it, and I am still riding that now.

It felt as though Raleigh kept changing management. One lot would come in and go bargain basement, and the bikes would become rubbish. Then the next lot would come in and go quality, and there'd be some decent ones for a bit. You never quite knew where they fitted. Sad, given their historical reputation.

BITD you could expect a good bike to last a long time before it would genuinely be old-fashioned.

This definitely. We used to look a bit odd at people who kept turning up with new bikes.

The equipment looked simple enough to fix but in reality it often wasn't; the idea that you could fix your own bike easily was all too often a mere illusion.

This one I can't relate to. My Dad taught me to true wheels and extract cotter pins long before I joined a club at around the age of 17.. By then I'd spent ages taking the rod brakes to bits on his old three speed, and then stripped down its three-speed hub because the gears were slipping. Didn't find the fault - had to take it down the LBS for some help - but got it back together OK.

Next I read Richard's Bicycle Book, which told you how to do nearly everything. So I did. One reason to covet Campag was the parts availability. You could get almost any odd piece. Shimano hadn't sorted that with their early gear. I do remember travelling down to Tunbridge Wells for a student championship (don't get excited, anyone could get a ride in those). On arrival, I found that the main spring in my Crane derailleur had gone. The shops were closed, but my host rang round the Southborough and District Wheelers, and found a friend whose Crane had failed in some other fashion. This was duly donated, and we sat happily on my friend's floor, cannibalising two to make one. I got my ride and, as I said, that mech is still on my old road bike.

So I find it really hard to relate to a world that is trying to argue that fixing bikes is the exclusive province of trained mechanics with certificates on the wall. Bikes are the people's transport that the people are supposed to be able to maintain, however valuable it may be to have a good LBS on hand for that thread tapping or frame tracking job for which few of us can afford to have the tools.

There have been bike shops, and oily-handed people earning a living fixing other people’s bikes, since bikes were invented, because not everyone who wants to ride a bike also wants to learn to fix bikes.

Nearholmer wrote: ↑7 Apr 2024, 12:29am There have been bike shops, and oily-handed people earning a living fixing other people’s bikes, since bikes were invented, because not everyone who wants to ride a bike also wants to learn to fix bikes.

Then maybe these types should refrain from complaining about the cost of parts/and/or/service costs
If one can't be ar$ed to learn the basics(and everything on a bicycle is basic) then maybe one should not whinge/moan/bitch/complain on a Forum about the cost of parts and labour


It really is that simple.

Nearholmer wrote: ↑7 Apr 2024, 12:29am There have been bike shops, and oily-handed people earning a living fixing other people’s bikes, since bikes were invented...

Jolly good thing too. But what feels new is the air of mystique that means that most people, including many club riders, take minor adjustments to the bike shop, and that bikes are being added to the list of things that really need someone qualified before you do so much as give them a polish.

I think the reason is that you need to break a lot of cheap bike stuff before you get good enough to work on the expensive stuff. If you're a MAMIL, new to cycling, with a £8,000 bike, it's not a good place to start learning.

rogerzilla wrote: ↑7 Apr 2024, 7:46am I think the reason is that you need to break a lot of cheap bike stuff before you get good enough to work on the expensive stuff. If you're a MAMIL, new to cycling, with a £8,000 bike, it's not a good place to start learning.

Absolutely... while I'm happy to refurbish pedals, freewheels and wheel hubs, I'm still not going to open up a pinion gearbox, rolhoff or even alfine hub - it's outside of my experience, and there's a big chance of me making a mistake, not recognising it and making the problem alot worse.

If you've bought a 8k bike, and never played with meccano and shied away from metal work as a kid, then even adjusting your stem height might cause you nightmares...

drossall wrote: ↑7 Apr 2024, 12:44am

Nearholmer wrote: ↑7 Apr 2024, 12:29am There have been bike shops, and oily-handed people earning a living fixing other people’s bikes, since bikes were invented...

Jolly good thing too. But what feels new is the air of mystique that means that most people, including many club riders, take minor adjustments to the bike shop, and that bikes are being added to the list of things that really need someone qualified before you do so much as give them a polish.

..ages ago I did raise the suggestion 'should bike maintenance be taught at school, as a general grounding in mechanics ?'.... it was generally shot down as it would have meant kids would have had to reduce their time in other subjects like 'comparative religious studies' 'media management' and 'how to direct u-tube videos'. Perhaps if we did have such classes, which involved rebuilding things...the next generation would be designing a whole lot of amazing new mechanical stuff in Britain, reducing our national debt and supporting our failing economy. We might have even developed the first flying saucer for our own national security.... we might even see a decrease in the number of adults with anxiety and depression*

(*apparently, whilst not suffering from either, I've been called a 'carrier' for both).

cycle tramp wrote: ↑7 Apr 2024, 9:10am

rogerzilla wrote: ↑7 Apr 2024, 7:46am I think the reason is that you need to break a lot of cheap bike stuff before you get good enough to work on the expensive stuff. If you're a MAMIL, new to cycling, with a £8,000 bike, it's not a good place to start learning.

Absolutely... while I'm happy to refurbish pedals, freewheels and wheel hubs, I'm still not going to open up a pinion gearbox, rolhoff or even alfine hub - it's outside of my experience, and there's a big chance of me making a mistake, not recognising it and making the problem alot worse.

If you've bought a 8k bike, and never played with meccano and shied away from metal work as a kid, then even adjusting your stem height might cause you nightmares...

Well said.

And the constructive rôle of enthusiasts is to help others, not decry their general or specific incompetence.

Thanks to all of you who support, instruct, work in cooperatives etc.

Jonathan

cycle tramp wrote: ↑7 Apr 2024, 9:13am ..ages ago I did raise the suggestion 'should bike maintenance be taught at school, as a general grounding in mechanics ?'.... it was generally shot down as it would have meant kids would have had to reduce their time in other subjects like 'comparative religious studies' 'media management' and 'how to direct u-tube videos'.

I think the only objection I raised to that idea was that there's now so many variations, iterations and so on that trying to have a single class saying (for example) "here's how to fix your disc brakes" would likely be of very limited use given the sheer number of versions out there dating back 25 years or so potentially.

I have no objection at all to general engineering classes - something which talked through the cost and basic principles of car, house, bike maintenance and that showcased examples of city and civil engineering. I just think that the real specifics like replacing a BB (of which there are dozens of different types) is bets left to a specific bike mechanic class or possibly even more specific, classes given by the manufacturer.

I remember doing a couple of classes when I was mechanic-ing - one was run by Scott looking at their Genius full-suspension bike (which, at the time, used a pull shock, markedly different to anything else on the market), I did one from Cannondale as well on the Headshok suspension unit. Most brands employ a tech specialist to run these sort of things for bike shops and sometimes bike journalists too although (as far as I know) they're never available to the general public.

I'm a self-employed bike mechanic and have been so for over 15 years. Recently my circumstances have allowed me to work part-time.
Two things have happened in the last few years that have drastically affected the affordability of my work.
Firstly, bike tech. Proportionally speaking, there are far more high-end bikes in general use than there used to be. Cycling was largely undertaken on bikes that had a long service life and were, technically speaking, not sophisticated and requiring specific service knowledge and tooling. Now, however, a very significant percentage of riders own bikes that are technically advanced, require specific skills and knowledge and the parts involved cannot be substituted for cheaper alternatives, repaired simply or attended to without a significant increase in workshop time. Cable routing is a perfect example of this. The additional cost implications of internal routing far outweigh its necessity as a functional improvement in the majority of bikes thus fitted.
Secondly, the rise in the cost of living and the breakdown of a significant part of the supply chain has put pressure on manufacturers and service centres alike.
It's nice that I now have time to enjoy the sport I love but from a business perspective having less bikes through the workshop makes me less 'on the ball' with every aspect of the industry and the user experience. The advancement of tech and balloning of product choice and fitment standards leaves me, at times, quite unsure if I am geared-up to fulfil a customers needs when I receive an enquiry. Also, quoting for work is often difficult. I find myself somewhat unsure how to price some jobs as I don't know how much labour will be involved. I'm sure I'm not the only one and if this is common then, given the costs mentioned earlier most mechanics will err on the beneficial side and negotiate with the less happy customers where necessary.

If you go back to the start of this thread, it becomes evident that it has spun off to a strange and rather irrelevant place, because it began with a person who clearly does do their own maintenance and rebuilds, the issue being the cost and the difficulty of sourcing parts.

Surely, as illustrated by a parallel thread, this is about choices: one can opt to go fully DIY, and choose bike-tech that is readily available at fairly low cost, so probably not at the cutting edge of performance; or one can go super cutting-edge, typically in pursuit of some aspect of high-performance (could be speed, could be mega-endurance, could be terrifying downhill drops and jumps), probably having to pay a specialist to do some or all of it; or, one can plough some middling path dictated by level of love of tinkering, money, skill, time, tools etc. None of those choices amounts to a sin, so far as I’m aware.

Personally, I’m now a middling-path-plougher, increasingly inclined to pay someone else to do the less frequent jobs. I get my tinkering-kicks from my other hobby, and it’s for that one that I’ve accumulated all the tools, and a greater range of skills, down the years.

Fair point, Nearholmer. However, don’t underestimate the extent to which trickle-down tech has complicated the supply chain. Even modestly priced bikes exhibit a level of sophistication that was neither required nor supplied ten plus years ago. Now the supply chain has to cater for a much wider choice of parts and service items and even something as humble as a brake pad or inner tube has a gazillion different iterations all needing to be manufactured at what is inevitably greater cost that the one-size-fits all, make it in the millions manufacturing world of yesterday.
Yes, it’s been a long time since nearly everyone rode sit up and beg utility bikes but even at the turn of this century most bikes were mountain bikes exclusively fitted with 26 inch wheels and now there are 26, 27.5 and 29 inch options on MTB’s.
Don’t get me started on bottom brackets, headsets and hubs.

I get it. I especially get the plethora of non-interchangeable bearings, which can be the sneaky complicators of life in even a superficially simple, entry-level bike with simple vee-brakes and a simple drive-train.

It’s the same in other fields. The costs of design and tooling-up for production have fallen in real terms due to software and automation, which allows super-optimisation, and the production processes have changed, permitting smaller batch-sizes, and often reduced initial prices for entire assemblies (bikes in this case), with the perverse outcome that unit cost of spares has gone up, along with the amount of specialist knowledge and tooling needed to actually undertake maintenance/replacement. Now that electronics are increasingly creeping onto bikes, things can only get more interesting!