Cycling UK Forum

531colin wrote: ↑6 Apr 2024, 11:07am Balanced position by 531colin, on Flickr

I set saddle setback so that I'm not propping up my torso on my hands; in other words if I let go of the bars when pedalling normally I don't fall forwards.

How does everybody else do it?

If you're bent over in balance like that you're still doing work to keep your spine up, and it takes more work than being stood or sat up straight, just like standing balanced in a squat is harder work for your legs than standing straight.
I have my saddle set so I can do that, but in practice I split the holding my spine up work between my core muscles and my arms rather than all one or the other. If you're bent over, unless you've had your spine fused, work is needed to hold things up. If your core's strong enough to do all the work all day then that's handy, but it's not a given for everyone.
Same goes for necks. The more of a lean, the more work you need to do to hold your head up and looking forwards. Being balanced over your feet doesn't remove the need to do work to hold a spine straight.

Pete.

I think its worth spending a bit of time and effort to get properly comfortable on a bike, because once you are properly comfortable you can relax, and when you are relaxed you will be riding efficiently and you will be able to ride for as long as you like day after day (if you want to).
If you get aches and pains and niggles after 50 miles its miserable (and I would suggest you are probably doing it wrong) and its certainly miserable to repeat it all the next day, and the day after that. Yes, if you lean forward a bit you will have to get used to leaning forward a bit, and to holding your head up, but lots of us don't find this a problem: I certainly don't find it a problem, but I don't consider my riding position to be extreme.

A lot of good points have already been made, I am going to set out a sequence to do the adjustments. Setting up your bike is however an iterative process; you should find yourself re-visiting the same adjustment as you refine your ideas of bike fit.
Mark, measure, photograph and note down everything you do, so you know where you are, where you came from, and what difference it made.

1. saddle height. the most basic adjustment. start by the "rule of thumb" which is that your saddle height is pretty near right if you can put your heels on the pedals and turn the pedals backwards without rocking your hips (holding yourself up on something, obviously!)

2. saddle setback. To start with I would use the "rule of thumb" which is KOPS..(see my bike fit piece for explanation) Later, explore the "balanced position" in my bike fit piece.
Oddly enough, lots of people have a problem with KOPS (its unscientific etc) but the heel on pedal thing for saddle height doesn't get anything like such a bad reaction. The only thing that matters is that both "rules" work for a great many people.

3. handlebar height. Set the bars level with the saddle; its as good a place as any to start, and many touring/recreational cyclists don't change the bar height much from there.

4. reach to the bars. I'm not very confident in a "rule of thumb" for this one. In my DIY bike fit piece, I show my elbow on the saddle nose, and my extended fingers brushing the back of the bars.....thats one "rule of thumb"
Another is elbow on saddle nose, the reach to the bars is elbow to extended fingers PLUS the width of your hand. Maybe thats for racing. A third is that when you are sat on the bike, the handlebars should obscure the front hub. Thats just weird.
So, leave the reach to the bars as it is just for now and go for a ride.

You should be able to pedal comfortably with a bit of bend still left in your knee at the bottom of the stroke. That means you should also be able to turn the pedals very fast and still pedal smoothly, without bouncing on the saddle. If you find yourself a bumpy bit of track, you should be able to pedal still in contact with the saddle, but without putting any real weight on the saddle.....this is much more comfortable (and actually more efficient) than trying to sit on a saddle thats bouncing you about on a bumpy bit of track (or road).
Its true that for a given amount of muscular work you get the most force on the pedal when the knee is almost straight at the bottom of the stroke. Time for another new concept; "forcing the gear".....this means working hard turning the pedals relatively slowly in a gear a bit higher than you would ordinarily use in the circumstances. Now, when forcing the gear (on a smoother surface), you can slide back a bit in the saddle and drop your heels a bit to get a bit more knee extension and a bit more go for your effort. I think thats a better system than the current fashion, which seems to be to have the saddle so high that you have to be on tiptoe to reach the bottom pedal.

How much weight on your hands? Can you balance without supporting your torso on your hands, or do you fall forward? Just idling along, I like to have just enough weight on my hands so that I can steer by the weight on my hands, without wrapping my fingers round the bar. Forcing the gear, I will be pulling up and back on the bars (or the brake hoods) ....pull up with left hand as left pedal goes down.
On my bumpy bit of track, I am able to ride with no weight on the bars, so my hands don't get bounced around....My weight is largely on my feet, I am in balance, I don't pitch forward onto the bars, or backwards onto the saddle, and I'm not being bounced around by the saddle.

Back to reach to the bars. Having set saddle height and setback, reach to the bars is adjusted by fitting a different length stem. How do you decide to change the stem, it will cost you money for a new stem to try, unless you can borrow one....most cyclists end up with a box of discarded stems!
If my saddle setback is "right" (judged by KOPS and balance point) and I find myself sliding off the back of the saddle when forcing the gear (for example) then my reach is too short. If my saddle setback is "right" and I find myself being dragged forwards to sit on the front of the saddle then my reach is too long.

531colin wrote: ↑6 Apr 2024, 6:37pm I think its worth spending a bit of time and effort to get properly comfortable on a bike, because once you are properly comfortable you can relax, and when you are relaxed you will be riding efficiently and you will be able to ride for as long as you like day after day (if you want to).

This is exactly why I prefer long trips on a recumbent.

531colin wrote: ↑6 Apr 2024, 6:37pm
If you get aches and pains and niggles after 50 miles its miserable (and I would suggest you are probably doing it wrong) and its certainly miserable to repeat it all the next day, and the day after that. Yes, if you lean forward a bit you will have to get used to leaning forward a bit, and to holding your head up, but lots of us don't find this a problem: I certainly don't find it a problem, but I don't consider my riding position to be extreme.

I agree it's not extreme, but I prefer more upright than that and in a similar position to that I got a crick in my neck after 50 miles. That lots of folk don't doesn't mean that nobody does, and as someone who does I solved it by getting a recumbent that gives me good aero and excellent comfort for as long as my legs keep going.

I think your fitting guide is excellent and helpful, and I'm more comfortable having set up according to its principles, but there's no getting away from a crouched riding position (even a non-radical one) being an adaptation that some adapt to better than others. I can see how I can get my seat and bar position wrong and agree it is worth taking time to tune that, but I think holding my head up to look ahead is something even I will have trouble doing wrong...

Pete.

If not sorted may be worth considering just swapping a straight in place of drop bars.Pain is a warning sign.

JohnR wrote: ↑6 Apr 2024, 8:48am .................
The saddle position is actually an illusion as that photo is of a synthetic saddle (Selle SLR) which has the rails further forward than a leather saddle and needed a seatpost to match............

Just to be clear, I was looking at the positions of our saddles relative to the back axle in the photographs. The back of my saddle appears to be more or less above the axle, whereas the back of your seatpack appears to be more or less above the axle, which is quite a big difference.
None of this matters a hang just as long as everybody is comfortable, and every previous time i have attempted to compare bike measurements with forum members it has all dissolved into a most unsatisfactory mess.....even stuff as basic as leg length and saddle height.

So without any great expectations of a breakthrough (or even any agreement!) i have taken a few rough measurements......

My seat height from BB axle to saddle top, measured along the seat tube 695mm
Seat height from BB axle to bum bone dent (bbd) 720mm
Saddle nose setback behind BB axle 80mm (measured horizontally)
bbd setback behind BB axle 300mm (horizontal)
BB axle to bar grip centre (horizontal ) 470mm
bar grip centre to bbd 830mm

There is nowhere very sensible to measure stuff from on the saddle.
measuring from the saddle nose is easy but nobody sits on the nose.
Measuring from the bum bone dent almost makes sense, but its difficult to do (I just guessed the middle of the dent) .....apparently we sit on the ischio-pubic ramus https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bi ... bout-smps/ which resembles the rocker of a rocking chair, so different angles of pelvic tilt will result in the cyclist sitting on a different bit of the ischio-pubic ramus.
(see, for example, the difference in my measurements from BB axle to saddle top along the seat tube compared with BB axle to bum bone dent, which incorporates saddle setback. I think it was Lemond who recommended measuring saddle height to the bum bone dent)
It would probably be ideal to measure from the acetabulum (hip joint socket) but thats not something I can do......might be possible with a video image capturing device?

My saddles these days are SMP TRK if its important....much the same dimensions and shape as the B17 narrow I rode for most of a lifetime, but i now seem to need a central cutout and a bit of softness. can't stand the plastic though, i have covered them in leather.

531colin wrote: ↑8 Apr 2024, 11:31am ...
None of this matters a hang just as long as everybody is comfortable, and every previous time i have attempted to compare bike measurements with forum members it has all dissolved into a most unsatisfactory mess.....even stuff as basic as leg length and saddle height.
...

Lots of us have learnt lots from you. Please keep it coming.

And when we have the OP's photos and some ideas about the reach and the cause of the discomfort I'll be joining others in suggesting getting the saddle right first and then setting the possibly-revised reach appropriately.

Jonathan

531colin wrote: ↑8 Apr 2024, 11:31am So without any great expectations of a breakthrough (or even any agreement!) i have taken a few rough measurements......

My seat height from BB axle to saddle top, measured along the seat tube 695mm
Seat height from BB axle to bum bone dent (bbd) 720mm
Saddle nose setback behind BB axle 80mm (measured horizontally)
bbd setback behind BB axle 300mm (horizontal)
BB axle to bar grip centre (horizontal ) 470mm
bar grip centre to bbd 830mm

My saddles these days are SMP TRK if its important....much the same dimensions and shape as the B17 narrow I rode for most of a lifetime, but i now seem to need a central cutout and a bit of softness. can't stand the plastic though, i have covered them in leather.

For comparison, my measurements as of today with a seatpost providing 25mm setback and a Brooks B17 saddle as far back as it will go.

Seat height from BB axle to saddle top, measured along the seat tube 690mm
Seat height from BB axle to bum bone dent (bbd) 700mm
Saddle nose setback behind BB axle 50mm (measured horizontally)
bbd setback behind BB axle 250mm (horizontal)
BB axle to hood (horizontal) 435mm
bar grip centre to bbd 800mm

It's not a direct comparison as we are comparing by drop bars with your flat bars. I have also checked KOPS and the plumb bob was about 10mm forward of the pedal spindle - close but not perfect.

I could get a seatpost (eg Kalloy Uno) that gives 30mm setback to move the saddle back another 5mm but that's the effective limit if using a B17. As noted above, other saddles with differently shaped rails will sit further back. I would also need to fit a shorter stem (currently 60mm) to maintain the same saddle - bars distance. I've got a little weight on the handlebars, but not much and there's no issue with the comfort of hands and arms. The next planned tweaking is to lower the bars by 5mm and see if my back complains.

Exercise a bit of caution when comparing seatpost setback; manufacturers are liable to use the measurement of how far the clamp bolt is behind the centre of the post, but in the real world setback is determined by how far the front of the saddle clamp is behind the centre of the post. Here viewtopic.php?t=104331&hilit=ergotech&start=45 there is an old and new version of a seatpost which is differently made but the same old number is quoted for setback.
Longest layback posts currently available are an expensive Nitto which may not be long enough and an Ergotech which is awkward to use.

Interesting comparison of our numbers, John.
Measuring straight up the seat tube, theres little difference in saddle height; I'm sat further behind the BB than you, so BB to bbd shows more difference than measuring straight up the seat tube.
Within the limits of the accuracy of the numbers, my hands are further forward than yours. I don't think I'm as fussy about reach to the bars as I am about the rest of riding position, but it kind of makes sense if my bum is further behind the BB my hands will be further in front to balance?

pjclinch wrote: ↑6 Apr 2024, 8:35pm ...............there's no getting away from a crouched riding position (even a non-radical one) being an adaptation.........

Pedalling a bicycle is an adaptation.
balancing and steering a bicycle is a whole raft of adaptations.
....and yet, here we all are, doing these things.

perhaps we should all give up and go back to walking on all fours

531colin wrote: ↑8 Apr 2024, 5:26pm Longest layback posts currently available are an expensive Nitto which may not be long enough and an Ergotech which is awkward to use.

Interesting comparison of our numbers, John.
Measuring straight up the seat tube, theres little difference in saddle height; I'm sat further behind the BB than you, so BB to bbd shows more difference than measuring straight up the seat tube.
Within the limits of the accuracy of the numbers, my hands are further forward than yours. I don't think I'm as fussy about reach to the bars as I am about the rest of riding position, but it kind of makes sense if my bum is further behind the BB my hands will be further in front to balance?

I see what you mean by the expensive Nitto https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/166694057105 (I didn't buy it). I bought this one instead https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/394328380625 as the seller offered £5 off and I don't need a very long seatpost so it might be less heavy than some others in my collection even if it doesn't give more setback. I would also note that if the saddle goes back further then there's less weight on the front wheel. There are times when I have to lean forwards a little when going uphill to keep the front wheel on the ground because I find that a more upright position is good for the breathing.

I wonder if some of our measurement difference is due to type of handlebars. I've measured the bbd - grip position on my bike that still got flat bars (Ergotec AHS) and get 700mm to the primary hand position and 850mm to the secondary hand position. The latter is a bit more than the bbd - hoods distance on the drop bar bike where my secondary hand position is on the drops.

I hope that our digression is of interest and use to others including the OP. The folk in Harrogate will have done their best to set up the bike to what they think is a good fit but very often some fine tuning is needed as only longer (in my experience a couple of hours) rides are needed to reveal if something could be better.

531colin wrote: ↑9 Apr 2024, 12:33pm

pjclinch wrote: ↑6 Apr 2024, 8:35pm ...............there's no getting away from a crouched riding position (even a non-radical one) being an adaptation.........

Pedalling a bicycle is an adaptation.
balancing and steering a bicycle is a whole raft of adaptations.
....and yet, here we all are, doing these things.

perhaps we should all give up and go back to walking on all fours

I think for the most part we're in "furious agreement" over setup, I'm simply pointing out there's no Magic Position with a forward lean where you get everything sorted with no downsides, and that doesn't contradict anything in your (excellent and useful) fitting guide.

We've evolved to spend a lot of time upright rather than bent over, so our bodies consequently do upright better than bent over with less work to do to keep the spine straight the more vertical it is, the weight at the top has a lower moment if it's in line vertically with the base.
None of that means nobody can bend over, just they have to do more work if they do, and it's work that their normal more upright stance won't necessarily have prepared them for if it's for a few hours at a time.

Ironically it's the loss of the adaptations for walking on all fours (particularly front feet evolved to take weight rather than do fiddly stuff with tools) that make leaning weight on to our hands for long periods a problem. If we were more like gorillas then taking weight through the bones in our arms rather than the muscles in our core would make much better sense!

Walking there's not really anything to gain by adopting a crouch which is why folk typically don't, but air resistance means it's often worth it on a bike. If we're not in a hurry it's very hard to beat the comfort of something like a Pedersen or an oma/opafiets where the setup is set seat to a comfortable height and pretty much job done. Don't expect to be quick though!

Pete.

JohnR wrote: ↑9 Apr 2024, 12:47pm .............. There are times when I have to lean forwards a little when going uphill to keep the front wheel on the ground because I find that a more upright position is good for the breathing............

Its years since I've lifted the front wheel, these days I get off and walk (or turn the battery on)
I used to get the wheel lifting just at the moment either pedal went down. I found (slightly unexpectedly) a lower gear kept the wheel down, I think because I was able to pedal more smoothly.

Thank you to everybody for all the discussion so far - I'm learning a lot and have been rereading Colin's fitting guide too. Sorry for the long delay - here are some pics of me on the bike. I'd be very grateful for any further insight.

The saddle is a B17 and there is scope for perhaps a TINY bit of further layback on the seatpost, not much though.

Thanks for the photos.

1 Did you have a chance to do the dropped arm test? From the photos it doesn't look as if you're having to stretch to reach the bars.

2 In the first and third photo it looks as if your wrists are pretty extended (cocked). That doesn't connect well to the symptoms that you described: does it feel like a problem?

3 I'd now start with the saddle fore-and-aft position and height, as discussed above, and then come back (!) to the bars when that's done.

Jonathan

I would advise you to rule out first riding with dropped bars a little and often to cure the problem. If you are riding the bike as infrequently as once every few weeks, it may well be just a matter of adaptation. If it is and you start to tweak aspects of your bike set-up and position, you may end up going down a very frustrating rabbit hole.

Years ago I bought a bike which I found I just could not get properly comfortable on. I spent some time altering differing aspects of the fit before giving up and putting the bike aside for a few years. I then tried again, and bought one new stem after another to try to fix it. Finally I read 531colin's guide and realised that the cause was likely insufficient saddle set-back, because the bike had a steep 74 degree seat angle and a typical Brooks saddle with its short rails. Part of the problem in my case had been that there were no obvious clues, such as noticeably too much weight on my hands. A new seat post fixed it for me.

Although I advise against altering your set-up before ruling out adaptation, there is a basic check mentioned in 531colin's guide which you could do in the meantime. When out for a ride, after a while, say half an hour, try riding up a slight(ish) incline with your hands on the tops of the bars and your fingers very loosely wrapped around the bars (not significantly gripping or pressing against the underside of the bars). To maintain the same gear and pace that you were using on the flat, the incline will require you to increase your effort a bit and put more power through the pedals. If your saddle is set back sufficiently that you are at the balance point on your bike, the extra pressure on the pedals will result in your hands lifting gently from the bars, and your fingers will start to press against the underside of the bars.

I think the above is a useful indicator. It is not a particularly high precision test, but I don't think it needs to be. Saddle set back does not need single millimetre levels of precision: 5mm or even 10mm is often probably close enough.