Cycling UK Forum

If you look at the 3 big European high end producers (who now sell almost exclusively carbon products) they all produce a version of their classic steel frames. Colnago still make a very fine version of the Gilco steel Master, Bianchi are apparently selling a ton of their Columbus tube Superissimo and Pinarello are doing a 'reissue' of their top of the line steel frame. I believe Holdsworth are still selling (I've heard the frame is made and painted in Taiwan) a Reynolds version of their iconic orange Professional. They sell them at reasonable price, which is comparable in terms of inflation to the originals. I think the Colnago master, (the X Light version with carbon forks) is selling at £1995. When I looked at buying one in 1998, they were £1295.

I suppose if you look at manufacturing output, then compared to these cycling behemoths, the likes of Mercian et al have always been small, niche operators. Companies who rely on a small number of perhaps repeat buyers are always vulnerable to market winds and fashion. So I think it's wrong to say that steel frames aren't popular: they are, but the number of people who are willing to shell out for bespoke steel from niche operators is clearly diminished. I think that's because offerings from the big manufacturers are so good.

Would the likes of Jack Taylor bikes survive now? I think they probably would, because they had a lot of international clients (especially in the US and Germany), and provided a lucrative niche within a niche, the Taylor tandem. If you make outstanding products they will always find a market no matter the global conditions. If you are making mediocre or run of the mill items and have not adapted to modernity or current cycling fashion, then that's going to be a vulnerable proposition when buyers tastes or the economy changes.

From information I've gathered from elsewhere it unfortunately appears that Mercian are no more

Hemipode wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 9:11am From information I've gathered from elsewhere it unfortunately appears that Mercian are no more

That's a shame. Is there information you can share?

JerseyJoe wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 8:54am If you look at the 3 big European high end producers (who now sell almost exclusively carbon products) they all produce a version of their classic steel frames. Colnago still make a very fine version of the Gilco steel Master, Bianchi are apparently selling a ton of their Columbus tube Superissimo and Pinarello are doing a 'reissue' of their top of the line steel frame. I believe Holdsworth are still selling (I've heard the frame is made and painted in Taiwan) a Reynolds version of their iconic orange Professional. They sell them at reasonable price, which is comparable in terms of inflation to the originals. I think the Colnago master, (the X Light version with carbon forks) is selling at £1995. When I looked at buying one in 1998, they were £1295.

I suppose if you look at manufacturing output, then compared to these cycling behemoths, the likes of Mercian et al have always been small, niche operators. Companies who rely on a small number of perhaps repeat buyers are always vulnerable to market winds and fashion. So I think it's wrong to say that steel frames aren't popular: they are, but the number of people who are willing to shell out for bespoke steel from niche operators is clearly diminished. I think that's because offerings from the big manufacturers are so good.

Would the likes of Jack Taylor bikes survive now? I think they probably would, because they had a lot of international clients (especially in the US and Germany), and provided a lucrative niche within a niche, the Taylor tandem. If you make outstanding products they will always find a market no matter the global conditions. If you are making mediocre or run of the mill items and have not adapted to modernity or current cycling fashion, then that's going to be a vulnerable proposition when buyers tastes or the economy changes.

I have seen via the web that the likes of Colnago and Bianchi still make new steel frames, but I never see them in the flesh. I see more Lamborghinis around here than new high end steel bike frames. If someone cycles past on a racey bike in lycra, they are almost certain to be on carbon or ally. Less commonly on titanium. Touring types might be on Far Eastern produced steel from Surly, Spa or Thorn, but seldom on anything bespoke. I very rarely see new bespoke steel frames. When I do, I stop and take a look if they are parked, or my eyes follow them up the road if they are moving. High end steel is less common now than at any time since I started noticing bike frames.

And I regret the disappearance of Roberts, Yates (retired) and, it seems, Mercian. It is a loss.

pwa wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 9:31am
I have seen via the web that the likes of Colnago and Bianchi still make new steel frames, but I never see them in the flesh.

If you're as big as Colnago and Bianchi then it's not much trouble putting a notional Nice Product up on the website that people like to drool over nostalgically but probably won't actually buy. If you only make a handful it doesn't really matter if the selling rate is practically zero. If they're going on nostalgia in any case then it doesn't matter if you don't sell them this year, and worst case is it's a small write off and donate them to a good cause. My guess is it's effectively a PR exercise where they can write off any cost against overall good feelings for the brand.

Pete.

pjclinch wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 10:08am

pwa wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 9:31am
I have seen via the web that the likes of Colnago and Bianchi still make new steel frames, but I never see them in the flesh.

If you're as big as Colnago and Bianchi then it's not much trouble putting a notional Nice Product up on the website that people like to drool over nostalgically but probably won't actually buy. If you only make a handful it doesn't really matter if the selling rate is practically zero. If they're going on nostalgia in any case then it doesn't matter if you don't sell them this year, and worst case is it's a small write off and donate them to a good cause.
Pete.

The Colnago Master X Light is one of Sigma sports best selling frames. Try buying one: they're almost always out of stock. There's a big enough market for vintage steel replica since Eroica took off 20 years ago.
The major problem a lot of these failing or given up bespoke builders had was not marketing themselves properly. It's almost impossible to sell a high value product today without a very good website. I have a Mercian print brochure from 2015 and it's a shocker! It looks very dated and even obsolete. If you're wanting to sell high value, niche bespoke products you really need excellent marketing, and the will to invest in it. That's just the state of play.

I remember Spa Cycles website from a few years ago, it was a complete shambles trying to navigate it. It's not much better today, but at least it looks slightly contemporary.

I always felt Mercians were very expensive for fairly ordinary steel frames made using a questionable brazing process. The paint finishes were probably a big selling point.

Argos Racing Cycles build very few new frames now. Repair and refurb is the mainstay of the business, and there's a lot of that.

JerseyJoe wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 11:08am


The Colnago Master X Light is one of Sigma sports best selling frames. Try buying one: they're almost always out of stock. There's a big enough market for vintage steel replica since Eroica took off 20 years ago.
The major problem a lot of these failing or given up bespoke builders had was not marketing themselves properly. It's almost impossible to sell a high value product today without a very good website. I have a Mercian print brochure from 2015 and it's a shocker! It looks very dated and even obsolete. If you're wanting to sell high value, niche bespoke products you really need excellent marketing, and the will to invest in it. That's just the state of play.

I remember Spa Cycles website from a few years ago, it was a complete shambles trying to navigate it. It's not much better today, but at least it looks slightly contemporary.

Having had a quick look at the Sigma Sports site (I do like to look at bling Colnago sometimes), what strikes me is how little steel is evident there. One complete steel framed bike, compared to over a hundred with carbon, and a few dozen with ally. It is a similar story with framesets. The nice steel stuff is very much an outlier.

There may not be much steel on it, but it does sell well. I was at Eroica in Spain in 2021 and there were a good dozen or so steel framed replicas. Although I have a few carbon bikes myself (my Swiss BMC is effectively my favourite), I've got a 90's Italian made Banino frame in Columbus Spirit tubing which weighs 1520gr ex forks. About the same weight as a good aluminium frame, and only about 200gr heavier than a top flight Ti or mid range carbon. That's about the weight of a Mars bar!

Plus it's very pretty with lots of chrome and decor paint finish. It's definitely the best looking bike I own, and on the road it fairly zips along. It's my favourite bike for putting in a century ride in summer. Steel, whatever you say, has not sung it's last hoorah. Carbon definitely has it's limitations, (hard to repair, fragility, older carbon frames - debonding). I'm still a champion for metal!

Update! I just had a look at Kinesis Titanium road frames and for the same size as my steel Banino it weighs 1.5kg, so almost exactly the same. And it's £1750 also. I paid £550 for my Banino and it's the best money I ever spent on a cycling ticket. They market their Ti as your 'forever bike', fat chance! I've seen my fair share of cracked and broken titanium, riding a repaired titanium frame, no thanks. My steel frame will still be going long after I'm gone and my son will probably be able to pass it onto his offspring!

JerseyJoe wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 12:20pm There may not be much steel on it, but it does sell well. I was at Eroica in Spain in 2021 and there were a good dozen or so steel framed replicas. Although I have a few carbon bikes myself (my Swiss BMC is effectively my favourite), I've got a 90's Italian made Banino frame in Columbus Spirit tubing which weighs 1520gr ex forks. About the same weight as a good aluminium frame, and only about 200gr heavier than a top flight Ti or mid range carbon. That's about the weight of a Mars bar!

Plus it's very pretty with lots of chrome and decor paint finish. It's definitely the best looking bike I own, and on the road it fairly zips along. It's my favourite bike for putting in a century ride in summer. Steel, whatever you say, has not sung it's last hoorah. Carbon definitely has it's limitations, (hard to repair, fragility, older carbon frames - debonding). I'm still a champion for metal!

I don't disagree. I just think the market for high end steel is now very small. Those who love it and want to shell out on it are there, but they are a small band of enthusiasts who can't sustain the likes of Mercian anymore. How many new high end steel frames have you bought in the last ten years? I can tell you how many I've bought. None. I got my last prestige steel frameset in about 1997. The old steel frames we have in the back of the garage don't help the frame makers stay in business. It is our desire for new frames that does that.

Hemipode wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 9:11am From information I've gathered from elsewhere it unfortunately appears that Mercian are no more

Well, that's saddened me.
Here's mine out on a ride yesterday morning.

JerseyJoe wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 11:08am
The Colnago Master X Light is one of Sigma sports best selling frames. Try buying one: they're almost always out of stock. There's a big enough market for vintage steel replica since Eroica took off 20 years ago.

I'm happy to take your word for it as I'm not up on any aspect of the bike market, never mind this one, but I do note that "almost always out of stock" doesn't necessarily mean they're big sellers, it can mean that suppliers tend not to bother stocking them...

As for Eroica, while on the one hand it looks great isn't it supposed to be for vintage bikes, rather than vintage-a-like bikes?

Pete.

COUPLE OF POINTS.. any good shop will have shoes on show, doesnt mean they do a lot of sales ....with respect if you realised anything about professional cycle sales one needs them to hand..
secondly ave salary at 35K is way above realistic, yes the news media trail it out but in real terms amongst the non professionals its about 10k too high...how do i know , well i may be a thou or two wrong but many years of professional sales completing finance agreements, working with finance houses, banks etc you tend to get to know what people in various work earn..
.As regards what things are worth compared to years back i use a 20 pack of cigarettes, good ones today are 16/17 quid, i dont smoke now, but when i started on 1970's about 6 bob or in todays money 30p, a gallon of petrol was approx 7 shillings or 35p, and a pair of Grenson tiger chukka boots were 3 quid...will

willcee wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 2:42pm
.As regards what things are worth compared to years back i use a 20 pack of cigarettes, good ones today are 16/17 quid, i dont smoke now, but when i started on 1970's about 6 bob or in todays money 30p, a gallon of petrol was approx 7 shillings or 35p, and a pair of Grenson tiger chukka boots were 3 quid...will

Fags and petrol aren't a good measure because duty/tax has changed a lot over that time. Easier to use an inflation calculator, plenty of them online.

Pete.