anyone using wooden rims?

[DiTBho]

hi
I am considering the purchase of a wooden rims set made by Ghisallo, Italian craftsmanship since 1946.

They say

Why choose Wooden Rims ?

The answer is not obvious, anyone may ask '

• Are they not subject to break?
• How do they behave in case of rain?

Well the answer is very simple, wood it is an extremely elastic material and thanks to the subsequent careful and accurate workings improved over the years lead to a product of craftsmanship excellence that resists bad weather and allows a safe and comfortable drive, greatly reducing vibrations and stresses.

So, the advantage here is that they are comfortable drive, greatly reducing vibrations and stresses!
(to be verified)

In particular I'm considering their "Ultimate" rims made for ISO TSS hookless tyres, specifically the Ultimate-Sprinter rims set:

• 28" wheel
• 36 spokes holes, to be coupled with a Campagnolo Record/8Speed hub set
• 24.5mm width, to be coupled with a good TSS-clincher-tire (I still have to choose the best one)
• inner tube optimized for TSS, inflated for no more than 5 bar (ISO TSS specification)
• special nipple kit for wooden rims, to be combined with Sapin Race spokes
• carbon fiber ring less than 1mm thick , applied with resin to inner tube seat at pneumatic/clincher rim surface

It's advertized as

Pneumatic – Clincher Rims with a carbon fiber ring less than 1mm thick , applied with resin to inner tube seat at pneumatic/clincher rim surface.

Ultimate allows an inner tube inflating pressure till 6/7 bar (87/101 psi) and also a spokes tension equal to same tension generally applied to aluminium rim.

I don't think that carbon ring is used to inflate the tires to more than 5 bar because the TSS specifications expressly say not to exceed 5 bar.

Rather, I think it is advantageous for three reasons

• Without a carbon ring, from what I understand, wooden rims, given their flexibility, loosen the nipples and you have to adjust the spoke tension much more often. With the carbon ring this problem is solved.
• Without a carbon ring, adjusting the spoke tension is not an operation that is done in the same way as with aluminum rims. That is, you need to proceed much more slowly with the adjustment, give less than a quarter of a turn, and wait for the wood fibers to adapt, then give less than another quarter of a turn. The whole operation took up to a few hours. With the carbon ring the problem is not solved, you simply adjust them less frequently (see previous point)
• With the carbon ring, the spokes tension is equal to same tension generally applied to aluminium rim

A set of wheels of this type costs, complete, assembled, around 800/900 euros.

I would like to know if anyone has ever ridden this type of wheel, and if so, impressions, defects, advice, opinions...

(I don't want to read comments about the fact that today carbon rims are used etc etc, I know it and I don't care)

Thanks

[jimlews]

I have used wooden rims on the back of a 1920s Williamson tricycle.
They were for "tubs" - ie. glued on tyres and they worked ok.
I don't have that machine anymore, but if I were considering wood rims today, I would want to be very sure that they had received an effective treatment against damp (Wood is hydroscopic; it draws in moisture - that is how sap is transported around the tree).
Also, wood is subject to local compression/deformation when subject to localised stresses such as screws, nails and indeed spoke ferrules.
So I would want to place washers or some other insert into the spoke 'cups' (for want of a better word) to help spread the load of the spoke nipple as it is tensioned.
Other than that, I'd say if you want wooden rims and you have the money burning a hole in your pocket - go for it !

[DiTBho]

There is also a problem with the brakes, which seems to be THE big problem with wooden rims: they require brake pads that do not melt given the high temperatures they reach when rubbing against the wood.

Disc brakes have brake pads that exceed 100C, and that's not a problem because they are built with materials that not only don't melt at those temperatures, but also dissipate the temperature quickly.

With rim-brakes it's a completely different story; at 100C traditional pads do melt, and and since wooden rims don't have a metal braking track ... one solution seems to be to use cork-brake pads.

Fortunately, Ghisallo also has cork-brake pads.

That's good, since another problem is that they wear out very quickly, you need to stock up on them.

[jimlews]

There is also a problem with the brakes, which seems to be THE big problem with wooden rims: they require brake pads that do not melt given the high temperatures they reach when rubbing against the wood.

Disc brakes have brake pads that exceed 100C, and that's not a problem because they are built with materials that not only don't melt at those temperatures, but also dissipate the temperature quickly.

With rim-brakes it's a completely different story; at 100C traditional pads do melt, and and since wooden rims don't have a metal braking track ... one solution seems to be to use cork-brake pads.

Fortunately, Ghisallo also has cork-brake pads.

That's good, since another problem is that they wear out very quickly, you need to stock up on them.

Yes, I hadn't thought about that.
Mine were un-braked being on the rear wheels of an old trike. Perhaps significantly, the front (braked) rim was alloy.

Re: heat generation; remember how those old stone age guys used to make fire ?

[DiTBho]

Thanks for your feedback.
There are few people who appreciate wooden rims and are willing to share feedback, impressions, etc

if I were considering wood rims today, I would want to be very sure that they had received an effective treatment against damp (Wood is hydroscopic; it draws in moisture - that is how sap is transported around the tree).

Ghisallo applies two or three layers of "flatin", which is a waterproofing agent.
It should fix this problem.

wood is subject to local compression/deformation when subject to localised stresses such as screws, nails and indeed spoke ferrules.
So I would want to place washers or some other insert into the spoke 'cups' (for want of a better word) to help spread the load of the spoke nipple as it is tensioned.

This is the reason why I said above that you have to use their special nipple kit: not only are they longer, but they are supplied with special washers to solve this problem.

One of their bag-kit contains 36 nipples+washers, and costs ~15-20 euros, you need two for two wheels, but it's worth it.

Other than that, I'd say if you want wooden rims and you have the money burning a hole in your pocket - go for it !

Yup. 800/900 euro are a lot of money, but It would be a great experience, decidedly "different".

How was the experience with your bike? Is it true that rolling on wheels of wooden rims gives you the sensation of having two softer wheels, which better absorb the vibrations caused by road roughness?

Based on the fact that until the early 40s all the roads had no asphalt and were practically what we now call "white roads" (aka "roads for gravel bikes"), that type of wheels, in use until 1936, should be was ideal.

[DiTBho]

Mine were un-braked being on the rear wheels of an old trike. Perhaps significantly, the front (braked) rim was alloy.

I would do the opposite, as people like Ganna did on their early 1900s bike made of iron (pre steel technology: only front brake (Campagnolo caliper), no rear brake installed.

In their day leather-pads were used, but I will try cork-pads, and I will treat the braking surfaces of the front rim with hardener.
it was much heavier, we're talking about over 16kg, mine is made of grade 9 titanium, with a NivaCrMo steel fork, we're halfway to its weight, and this definitely helps the brakes.

However, for security reasons, I will never make pronounced descents (which take you to exceed 40km/h), I will maintain a maximum speed of 50km/h on level ground only on extra-urban roads (where there is no need to use the brake for a complete stop), max 28km/ h in the city center (1), and I will pinch the brake lever instead of holding it down.

(1) traffic lights need complete a stop. I have to carefully calculate and then verify experimentally, the meters I need to stop the bicycle, in relation to the weight of the bike, and to the type of "pinched" braking; 28km/h is a provisional indication based on rubber pad brakes on a safe complete stop distance

[DiTBho]

heat generation; remember how those old stone age guys used to make fire ?

I have a big 0.9l Campagnolo water bottle, with a long straw, attached to the frame with thin velcro straps, which reaches up to the handlebars. The reason is that I find it very difficult to unhook the water bottle without having to slow down and waste a lot of time.

So, I'm thinking - I'm joking - of also carrying a small tube on the fork, attached to a spray bottle like the one used for windshield wipers, so if the rims catch fire... you can "spray fresh water on the wooden rim!!!".

Can we patent it as a “fire protection mechanism for wooden rims”?

[Brucey]

one of the traditional problems for wooden rims was that there are seasonal changes in relative humidity and they can greatly change the tension in a built wheel. I was successfully put off wooden rims by folk who had used everything in the past; they told me that not only were they only really suitable for summer use, but also they could be expected to go out of true during winter storage. Al rims are a lot less bother by comparison..If you are looking for improved vibration absorption I would suggest that you choose your tyres and fork carefully.

[jimlews]

My trike was actually a racing trike.
But my use of it was much more sedate; the occasional trundle out with the veterans.
On another trike (conversion) with Weinman alloy rear rims, I used to enjoy hooligan tricks like riding along on only two wheels and faux handbrake turns, abuse I would never inflict on a wooden rim.

[DiTBho]

one of the traditional problems for wooden rims was that there are seasonal changes in relative humidity and they can greatly change the tension in a built wheel. I was successfully put off wooden rims by folk who had used everything in the past; they told me that not only were they only really suitable for summer use, but also they could be expected to go out of true during winter storage. Al rims are a lot less bother by comparison.

Doesn't the thin carbon ring that Ghisallo introduced in the Ultimate/Sprint line solve or mitigate this problem a bit?

If you are looking for improved vibration absorption I would suggest that you choose your tyres and fork carefully.

We should understand *how much* the fork and type of tires dampen vibrations, compared to how much wooden rims do!
I seriously wish someone had published some scientific data, or installed accelerometers on both the fork and the handlebars, repeating the test, for at least 50km, on the same bike, same rider, only changing the wheels.

Fork
Anyway, in my case: don't touch my fork!
It's handmade, made in NivaCrMo, it cost 300 euros for a total weight of only 650g, which is not bad for a steel fork.
Cheaper (industrial Unicrow) ones cost 50-60 euro, and have a weight of 900-1000g.

Aside from the weight, it has compensation and a curvature that dampens quite a bit. I feel the difference e.g. with the original steel fork mounted by Moser on my Forma-1996 (mid-range steel bicycle). It's even better, not in terms of weight, but in terms of comfort, than the carbon fork (just 350g) mounted by Litespeed on my Classic Titanium frame.

Plus, that fork has great dynamic response, and I wouldn't change it for any reason.

Tires
The type of tires, and the width... there isn't much choice on a frame that accepts 25mm at most.
I am currently using 24mm, and there isn't much difference in changing the type of tire compound. Yes, there is a difference, but it's very small.

In any case, I would seriously like to try the wooden rims. I'm doing some research to understand what problems they have, how to solve them, to be able to choose the best solutions, and to fully enjoy them for the best possible experience, and if possible, on a 400km journey.

[DiTBho]

one of the traditional problems for wooden rims was that there are seasonal changes in relative humidity

umm, I wonder ... shouldn't waterproofing (e.g. Flatin) also solve or mitigate this problem?
It is not bare wood, it is treated wood, covered with flatin, which should be done regularly, especially in autumn and winter

[Brucey]

a waterproof coating of some kind will definitely help but I suspect that this approach just slows changes that happen as a result of varying atmospheric humidity. Wood is in many ways a wonderful material, but it is not more widely used in an engineering context largely because of this.

[Cyclothesist]

If you want to read a modern cycling adventure featuring real life experience of wooden rims I can recomend Tim Moore's 'Gironimo! Riding The Very Terrible 1914 Tour of Italy'
Tim fits wooden rimmed wheels made by the same chap you're considering buying from. He uses cork brake blocks because standard blocks don't play nice with wood and fashions replacements from wine corks. It's a good hilarious read. There's a reason why we moved away from wooden rimmed wheels. Largely that there are better materials for the job nowadays. Here in Scotland I doubt they'd survive the awful road conditions of one winter.

[DiTBho]

Found this article online.

[kylecycler]

OP might well have seen this but I found it years ago on YouTube - a video (split into three episodes back when YT videos weren't allowed to be longer than 10 minutes) on how Ghisallo wheels are built. It's certainly a fascinating process.

Part !


Part 2


Part 3


Haven't forgotten the interviewer's dress sense either - very... elegant!