Changing gears

[Brianjeff50]

The bike I’ve just acquired has an 8000 series Ultegra chainset with 52/36 chainrings and an 11spd 11/28 cassette with a long cage (I think) derailleur. All of which makes it a bit high geared for this old bloke.

I’ve pored through some of the many posts on gearing but come away as confused as I began.

What’s the most cost effective (eg cheapest) way to make life easier? I run 50/34 and 11/32 on my other bike. I’d at least like to match that or preferably get easier.

Thanks

[Brucey]

I'm supposing that you have the 110x4 chainring bolt pattern. With this, you can go a bit smaller with conventional rings or a lot smaller using bikinGreen's special chainrings. 46/30 or 48/31 are possible if you have a 110x4 chainset. The snag is that they push the chainline leftwards, so they don't fit every bike.

A much cheaper alternative is a hanger extender; this will always let you fit a bigger sprocket, at the possible expense of shift quality on the smaller sprockets. This won't, however, give you more total capacity, which you might also need.

If you presently have 11-28 an it isn't worn out, you can convert this to 12-32 or 12-34 by buying a new 12t sprocket, a spacer and (of course) a new 32t or 34t sprocket. This is slightly complicated by the fact that you are changing the biggest sprocket, which overhangs the LH end of the freehub body.in most cases.

[853]

If you presently have 11-28 an it isn't worn out, you can convert this to 12-32 or 12-34 by buying a new 12t sprocket, a spacer and (of course) a new 32t or 34t sprocket. This is slightly complicated by the fact that you are changing the biggest sprocket, which overhangs the LH end of the freehub body.in most cases.

If the OP's cassette is also Ultegra 8000 it won't be that easy, or cheap. As I understand it, with the 8000 series cassette the largest three sprockets are joined together so you can't just change the largest one

[rareposter]

What’s the most cost effective (eg cheapest) way to make life easier? I run 50/34 and 11/32 on my other bike. I’d at least like to match that or preferably get easier.

Buy an 11sp MTB cassette, something like an 11-36. SRAM, Shimano, Sunrace, they'll all work.
You'll need a new chain and you may end up needing a Wolftooth rear mech hanger - it's a little extension fitting to lower the rear mech a bit and give it more clearance on the larger cassette.

Saves messing with chainrings which is inevitably more of a compatibility minefield and an 11-36 will give you a 1:1 low gear, lower even than the 34:32 on your other bike.

You could even drop it as low as an 11-40 cassette if necessary but that'll definitely need a long cage mech.

What's the bike (just out of interest)?

[Brianjeff50]

What’s the most cost effective (eg cheapest) way to make life easier? I run 50/34 and 11/32 on my other bike. I’d at least like to match that or preferably get easier.

Buy an 11sp MTB cassette, something like an 11-36. SRAM, Shimano, Sunrace, they'll all work.
You'll need a new chain and you may end up needing a Wolftooth rear mech hanger - it's a little extension fitting to lower the rear mech a bit and give it more clearance on the larger cassette.

Saves messing with chainrings which is inevitably more of a compatibility minefield and an 11-36 will give you a 1:1 low gear, lower even than the 34:32 on your other bike.

You could even drop it as low as an 11-40 cassette if necessary but that'll definitely need a long cage mech.

What's the bike (just out of interest)?

The bike is an Enigma Etape, an early disc braked model. I’ve fancied one for a while and one came up locally so I couldn’t resist.
Lovely bike but gearing a bit stiff for these old legs hence the desire to tinker. Thanks for the info.

[TheBomber]

Buy an 11sp MTB cassette, something like an 11-36. SRAM, Shimano, Sunrace, they'll all work…

Saves messing with chainrings which is inevitably more of a compatibility minefield and an 11-36 will give you a 1:1 low gear, lower even than the 34:32 on your other bike.

True, but if the OP is finding the current gearing a bit high the advantage of reducing the chainring sizes is that all the available gears are lowered. A wider range cassette provides a lower gear for hill climbing but leaves lots of redundant gears at the top end. It also has implications on when the rider is having to make the front shift, but it’s difficult to comment on that without knowing a load more about their riding style, speed, terrain etc.

[Brianjeff50]

Buy an 11sp MTB cassette, something like an 11-36. SRAM, Shimano, Sunrace, they'll all work…

Saves messing with chainrings which is inevitably more of a compatibility minefield and an 11-36 will give you a 1:1 low gear, lower even than the 34:32 on your other bike.

True, but if the OP is finding the current gearing a bit high the advantage of reducing the chainring sizes is that all the available gears are lowered. A wider range cassette provides a lower gear for hill climbing but leaves lots of redundant gears at the top end. It also has implications on when the rider is having to make the front shift, but it’s difficult to comment on that without knowing a load more about their riding style, speed, terrain etc.

Those top end gears are pretty redundant for me already to be fair. I live and mainly ride in Suffolk which ain’t exactly the Peaks and I was pretty pleased with myself when I averaged 14.5mph on my first 30mile ride on the Etape. That’s quick for me. My knees aren’t up to standing on the pedals much over climbs so basically lower bottom end ratios are what I need for when our few hills do arrive or I do an occasional tour or audax.
I’m trying to avoid wholesale spec changes as I’ve spent a lot of my pocket money already on the bike.

[Cugel]

Buy an 11sp MTB cassette, something like an 11-36. SRAM, Shimano, Sunrace, they'll all work…

Saves messing with chainrings which is inevitably more of a compatibility minefield and an 11-36 will give you a 1:1 low gear, lower even than the 34:32 on your other bike.

True, but if the OP is finding the current gearing a bit high the advantage of reducing the chainring sizes is that all the available gears are lowered. A wider range cassette provides a lower gear for hill climbing but leaves lots of redundant gears at the top end. It also has implications on when the rider is having to make the front shift, but it’s difficult to comment on that without knowing a load more about their riding style, speed, terrain etc.

That's right.

The ideal solution would be a 44/30 chainset with the existing cassette. A Shimano GRX chainset might go in? This retains the existing close-ratio cassette - and close ratios are A Good Thing.

An alternative is a new cassette with a 36 largest sprocket and swap the 52 ring for a 46 or 44 ring. This probably means no need to change the chain length as 6 or 8 teeth are lost from the chainset range to compensate for 8 teeth gained in the cassette range. (FInd a 13 - 36 cassette - even better).

The two potential bugbears are that:

* the rear mech might complain about the 36 ring. But I've made long arm Shimano road mechs work with a 36 sprocket by B-screw fiddlin'. (But don't use it with the big ring).

" the front mech might not go low enough on a braze-on frame fitting to stop the chain unshipping over the big ring of 46 or 44 teeth. Careful positioning of the front mech and its outward "throw", along with avoidance of changing to the big ring when in any of the smallest three sprockets on the cassette, can avoid unshipping. Alternatively, Spa sell a front mech dropper thingy for £17.50 that will get the front mech down far enough to prevent such chain unshipping.

46 X 11 still gives a top gear larger than the 52 X 13 that was used for decades by TdF riders. No ordinary human cyckist needs 52 X 11 or anywhere near it!

[rareposter]

True, but if the OP is finding the current gearing a bit high the advantage of reducing the chainring sizes is that all the available gears are lowered. A wider range cassette provides a lower gear for hill climbing but leaves lots of redundant gears at the top end. It also has implications on when the rider is having to make the front shift, but it’s difficult to comment on that without knowing a load more about their riding style, speed, terrain etc.

Yes, I agree with all of that.
Going by the OP's request of "simplest" and "cheapest" option, I still think the straightforward cassette change solves most of the issues for now, at least as a short-term fix.

But ideally (as you and Cugel point out), the bike sounds like it needs a wholesale change of groupset. Maybe the previous owner was younger or fitter or using the bike on flatter terrain (or equally likely, had simply specced "an Ultegra groupset" at point of purchase!)

A GRX chainset should work but it sits further outboard by about 2.5mm compared to a road chainset so ideally it needs a GRX front mech as well although I know that some road mechs can be persuaded to work with it. You may - as Cugel notes - need a front mech dropper link as sold by Spa to lower the front mech down a bit to cope with the smaller chainrings.
If the high end gears truly are redundant, going 1x would be an easier choice as well which does away with the need for a front mech altogether - although it does of course leave a redundant shifter!

Choices choices!

Edit: it'd be well worth checking how worn the existing groupset is - what you don't want to do is fit a new cassette (or a new chainset) and then find the rest of the stuff is so worn it won't work with the new parts. My normal approach with good quality S/H bikes like the one the OP has is to do a complete total strip, clean and rebuild, find out exactly what is worn and by how much and start compiling a list of potential replacement needs.

[cycleruk]

Crankset - https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... R8000.html
RD - https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... 00-GS.html

11 Speed Ultegra has been replaced with 12 speed. So 11 speed second hand parts should be somewhat easily available. (Ebay?)
The RD will do a 34T sprocket and possibly stretch to 36T.
'105' 11 speed is a direct replacement and a less expensive option.

[TheBomber]

I’m trying to avoid wholesale spec changes as I’ve spent a lot of my pocket money already on the bike.

Does it have a regular 68mm threaded bottom bracket, and therefore suitable for the Spa Cycles 'triple as sub-compact double' option frequently mentioned on this forum? Likely to be cheaper than other sub-compact doubles and, as it's a metal frame, it might still be in keeping aesthetically.

[Brianjeff50]

True, but if the OP is finding the current gearing a bit high the advantage of reducing the chainring sizes is that all the available gears are lowered. A wider range cassette provides a lower gear for hill climbing but leaves lots of redundant gears at the top end. It also has implications on when the rider is having to make the front shift, but it’s difficult to comment on that without knowing a load more about their riding style, speed, terrain etc.

Yes, I agree with all of that.
Going by the OP's request of "simplest" and "cheapest" option, I still think the straightforward cassette change solves most of the issues for now, at least as a short-term fix.

..it'd be well worth checking how worn the existing groupset is - what you don't want to do is fit a new cassette (or a new chainset) and then find the rest of the stuff is so worn it won't work with the new parts. My normal approach with good quality S/H bikes like the one the OP has is to do a complete total strip, clean and rebuild, find out exactly what is worn and by how much and start compiling a list of potential replacement needs.

Very true. Commonsense and budget dictate not chucking out good components. The chain measures up ok and the cassette and chainrings look ok but I don’t have a practised eye for these things. What do others think? Likewise, the part number on the derailleur has been damaged by some issue - does it look like a medium or long cage?

[rareposter]

That all looks clean-ish and good condition.
I reckon that's a medium cage mech so probably OK up to a 34, possibly a 36T cassette.

Could always keep any parts you do remove as spares or clean them up and sell on eBay.

Be nice to see a pic of the whole bike too - just because.

[Brianjeff50]

The only one I’ve got at the moment.

[Brucey]

If you presently have 11-28 an it isn't worn out, you can convert this to 12-32 or 12-34 by buying a new 12t sprocket, a spacer and (of course) a new 32t or 34t sprocket. This is slightly complicated by the fact that you are changing the biggest sprocket, which overhangs the LH end of the freehub body.in most cases.

If the OP's cassette is also Ultegra 8000 it won't be that easy, or cheap. As I understand it, with the 8000 series cassette the largest three sprockets are joined together so you can't just change the largest one

I said 'slightly' and it is no more than that. You can of course buy a new #1 sprocket (eg a miche one), and use it with all the extant sprockets (bar the 11t and 12t ones) plus a custom spacer. A longer chain wouldn't be a bad idea, and the OP's transmission appears to be sufficiently unworn to have a good chance with a new chain. This approach retains the close ratios in the middle of the cassette, and should be a lot cheaper than the bikinGreen chainrings.