Headset is loose: Too many spacers?

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Bice
Posts: 369
Joined: 18 May 2020, 7:33pm

Headset is loose: Too many spacers?

Post by Bice »

Image

I have fit new carbon forks to my steel frame with a 1 inch FSA headset.

I have also used perhaps an excess of 5mm spacers.

The result is that the bearings are both stiff and there is play, so something is not right.

I suspect this is caused the compression of so many small spacers: there are nine under the stem. This may be compromising the consistency of the preload on the bearings.

I have checked other possible issues: the compression bung is not coming out; I am preloading the bearings via the headset cap, then tightening the stem bolts.

Is this a case of just too many spacers? I have left the fork tube quite high until I have got used to it. I suppose it could be too high.

Or, I have done something else majorly wrong. (I am pretty sure that I fitted the crown race correctly.)
Daily: Carlton Courette 1982 mixte 42, 32, 22 x7
Van Nicholas Yukon titanium 50/34 10sp
Lazzaretti steel 1996 10sp 48/34
Trek 1.7 10sp 3x 2010;
Ciocc steel 1984 50/34x7
Marin Bolinas Ridge MTB c1995, 7x42, 34, 24
Scott Scale carbon MTB 27.5 inch
gregoryoftours
Posts: 2371
Joined: 22 May 2011, 7:14pm

Re: Headset is loose: Too many spacers?

Post by gregoryoftours »

It is possible, I guess, that the number of spacers could be contributing to uneven preload. You could try fewer, higher stack spacers of good quality. Also check that the crown race is fitted evenly and fully to the new fork. You could also try fitting the stem with just one spacer underneath it and then a big stack on top, just to see if there are any changes. Can you see any uneven gaps at any point on the headset? Check that any dust seals/shields are in correct orientation and are not getting pinched (especially at the crown race to lower bearing interface). You could try temporarily removing them (not the rubber seals of the actual cartridge bearings) to see if they are binding. Some up close photos might help somebody to spot something.
Last edited by gregoryoftours on 17 Jul 2024, 12:13pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Sum
Posts: 403
Joined: 17 Jul 2010, 9:13am

Re: Headset is loose: Too many spacers?

Post by Sum »

If there is an issue with the preload then the bearings shouldn't be both stiff and have play in them. I'd check the headset has been assembled correctly and nothing is binding, like gregoryoftours suggests, and also check that the bearings are ok.
gregoryoftours
Posts: 2371
Joined: 22 May 2011, 7:14pm

Re: Headset is loose: Too many spacers?

Post by gregoryoftours »

Here is the tech doc for that headset to check assembly.
s-l1200.jpg
Screenshot_2024-07-17-12-18-10-594_com.foxit.mobile.pdf.lite.jpg
If the upper cup seal is binding on the bearing cover you can get shims to create just a little more space to stop it happening. On my orbit mx headsets the two seals are popped into the upper and lower cups at quite a firm fit with the cartridge bearings already in place inside the cups.
Norman H
Posts: 1393
Joined: 31 Jul 2011, 4:39pm

Re: Headset is loose: Too many spacers?

Post by Norman H »

Are the headset cups and crown race fully seated?

Did you reface the crown race seat?

And did you have the head tube faced?
Cyclothesist
Posts: 900
Joined: 7 Oct 2023, 11:34am
Location: Scotland

Re: Headset is loose: Too many spacers?

Post by Cyclothesist »

A wild suggestion - if one of the caged bearings is in upside down it'll bind on the race.
tim-b
Posts: 2349
Joined: 10 Oct 2009, 8:20am

Re: Headset is loose: Too many spacers?

Post by tim-b »

As suggested above it's almost certainly a lack of shims between the underside of the top cover and the compression ring (parts 2 and 3 in the diagram posted above), assuming that the bearings are smooth and free-running

You probably have too many spacers for a CF steerer, but that's a safety issue rather than an operational one. IME manufacturers suggest either maximum steerer visible above the top race before a stem is fitted or...
"Check the amount of spacers required for the fit. No more than 40mm of spacers to be used (above and below the stem combined) for aluminium steerer tubes, and 30mm for carbon steerer tubes. We recommend at least 5 mm of spacer above the stem, so the preload cap is loading against a spacer not the stem itself." Kinesis UK https://upgradebikes.sharepoint.com/sit ... =true&ga=1
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~
TheBomber
Posts: 577
Joined: 16 Feb 2020, 8:18pm

Re: Headset is loose: Too many spacers?

Post by TheBomber »

Does the headset crown race fit snugly on the forks? The crown race seat on new 1 inch forks will be 26.4mm but the headset diagram helpfully posted by gregory suggests, surprisingly for an aheadset, that a crown race with an internal diameter of 27mm is also available.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/headsets.html
rjb
Posts: 7986
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 10:25am
Location: Somerset (originally 60/70's Plymouth)

Re: Headset is loose: Too many spacers?

Post by rjb »

Some 1" aheadsets were supplied with 2 crown races to cover both iso 26.4 and jis 27.0 forks. :wink:
Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X2, Raleigh 20 stowaway X2, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840, Giant Bowery, Apollo transition. :D
Bice
Posts: 369
Joined: 18 May 2020, 7:33pm

Re: Headset is loose: Too many spacers?

Post by Bice »

tim-b wrote: 17 Jul 2024, 2:57pm As suggested above it's almost certainly a lack of shims between the underside of the top cover and the compression ring (parts 2 and 3 in the diagram posted above), assuming that the bearings are smooth and free-running
Sorted. Thank you all for the responses, and to gregoryoftours for the schematic.

What happened was this:

I had cut the fork tube with a new 32T hacksaw blade; set the crown race with the use of a steel tube with plastic on the end from our Henry vacuum cleaner and a wooden mallet (with a wheel and inflated tyre in situ to absorb the impact); I had pressed in the lower and upper cups with a length of threaded steel rod with two pieces of MDF acting as press-plates (one at a time); I then over-generously greased the headset and put everything in place, indoors as it was raining.

But the family were around, so I was moved off into the garden and somehow managed to drop everything, with spacers and the upper headset going all over the place.

I assumed part 3, the split compression ring, was still in place with the rubber seal and the cartridge bearing. In fact, it had fallen out, and because it was covered in grease it had stuck to the side of a large cardboard box under a table, rather than landing on the floor with the rest.

This is why, when I tightened everything up, the headset was both overtight and had visible play in the top race.

I have only just found the split compression ring and reassembled the headset, which now works fine: the wheel turns without stiffness and there is no play.

I am pleased with the bike: particularly that I can now fit 28mm tyres; it has lost a bit of weight coming in at 9.3kgs; and it looks pretty decent, in my view (although losing the chrome steel forks was a wrench).

But I am wary about 1 inch carbon steerers on old steel frames.

The point below is interesting, and the reference tim-b gives is presumably to a wider carbon fork tube, so more likely to be stronger.

This is very much a summer bike, and I might trim more off the fork tube after a bit, but doubt that that in itself will add much to its safety. I would be interested to know if anyone has had a 1 inch carbon fork for long duration.

I think I need to be pretty careful with this bike, and perhaps the 101 times that I have tightened and loosened the stem here may have taken a few years off the carbon fork tube's lifespan.
tim-b wrote: 17 Jul 2024, 2:57pm You probably have too many spacers for a CF steerer, but that's a safety issue rather than an operational one. IME manufacturers suggest either maximum steerer visible above the top race before a stem is fitted or...
"Check the amount of spacers required for the fit. No more than 40mm of spacers to be used (above and below the stem combined) for aluminium steerer tubes, and 30mm for carbon steerer tubes. We recommend at least 5 mm of spacer above the stem, so the preload cap is loading against a spacer not the stem itself."
Daily: Carlton Courette 1982 mixte 42, 32, 22 x7
Van Nicholas Yukon titanium 50/34 10sp
Lazzaretti steel 1996 10sp 48/34
Trek 1.7 10sp 3x 2010;
Ciocc steel 1984 50/34x7
Marin Bolinas Ridge MTB c1995, 7x42, 34, 24
Scott Scale carbon MTB 27.5 inch
Brucey
Posts: 46526
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Headset is loose: Too many spacers?

Post by Brucey »

in most cases it is possible to use a rubber part in place of the wedge ring (see my 'rubbodraulics' post for more details) and since this won't let water through in the same way, it should be a good improvement.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bice
Posts: 369
Joined: 18 May 2020, 7:33pm

Re: Headset is loose: Too many spacers?

Post by Bice »

Your "rubbodraulics" post is here: viewtopic.php?p=1823070&hilit=RUBBOdraulics#p1823070

For the more bodger-inclined community, are you saying that I could have stuffed old inner tube against the cartridge bearing, perhaps with some grease, until the upper race firmed up and got away with it, had I not found the split compression ring?

Also, am I riding for a fall using one of these forks anyway (no guarantee, obviously), and that they are, broadly speaking, ill-advised?
Daily: Carlton Courette 1982 mixte 42, 32, 22 x7
Van Nicholas Yukon titanium 50/34 10sp
Lazzaretti steel 1996 10sp 48/34
Trek 1.7 10sp 3x 2010;
Ciocc steel 1984 50/34x7
Marin Bolinas Ridge MTB c1995, 7x42, 34, 24
Scott Scale carbon MTB 27.5 inch
TheBomber
Posts: 577
Joined: 16 Feb 2020, 8:18pm

Re: Headset is loose: Too many spacers?

Post by TheBomber »

Bice wrote: 17 Jul 2024, 5:24pm
I am pleased with the bike: particularly that I can now fit 28mm tyres; it has lost a bit of weight coming in at 9.3kgs; and it looks pretty decent, in my view (although losing the chrome steel forks was a wrench).
I agree - pretty bike. Columbus something I see. Fillet brazed too? Can’t get enough resolution to work it out
tim-b
Posts: 2349
Joined: 10 Oct 2009, 8:20am

Re: Headset is loose: Too many spacers?

Post by tim-b »

The generic instructions for Columbus forks are here... https://www.columbus1919.com/wp-content ... ctions.pdf

They go for a taller steerer with some visible above the stem as compared to Kinesis (above)
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~
Bice
Posts: 369
Joined: 18 May 2020, 7:33pm

Re: Headset is loose: Too many spacers?

Post by Bice »

tim-b wrote: 18 Jul 2024, 7:25am The generic instructions for Columbus forks are here... https://www.columbus1919.com/wp-content ... ctions.pdf

They go for a taller steerer with some visible above the stem as compared to Kinesis (above)
Thanks for this. It says not more than 40mm spacers below the stem and I have 45mm. So I will cut some more off.
Daily: Carlton Courette 1982 mixte 42, 32, 22 x7
Van Nicholas Yukon titanium 50/34 10sp
Lazzaretti steel 1996 10sp 48/34
Trek 1.7 10sp 3x 2010;
Ciocc steel 1984 50/34x7
Marin Bolinas Ridge MTB c1995, 7x42, 34, 24
Scott Scale carbon MTB 27.5 inch
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