Flat and Alt Bars - comfort and bike-handling

[Nearholmer]

This is to record my findings, and conclusions so far as there are any, following a lot of experiments with various “flat” and “alt” bars over the past c2 years.

My focus has not been on MTB, about which I know nothing, but on generally CX/Gravel shaped rigid bikes. The objective has been to solve a long-standing conundrum, which is that I find it extremely difficult to get a happy combination of power throughout, control, and comfort except on drop bars, but like to have a “flat” bike too, for shopping, gentle family rides etc, and don’t want it to be limited only to those things, I want it to be good for longer rides too, road, and all sorts of paths from decently paved cycleways to bumpy vestigial bridleways. Being “aero” isn’t a consideration.

The experiments started with:

- MTB style, widish (up to 700mm), with a very slight rise and tiny back-sweep.

These I do not get on with, because the wrist position is wrong for me, and the width leads to shoulder and neck pain fairly quickly, so …..

- the above cut progressively shorter and with various combinations of bar-ends, inner-bar-ends, different grips etc (luckily I can obtain these almost on-loan from the bike charity, which has a big bin full of recovered ones), ending with the bars c550mm wide, fitted with Ergon GP5 grips.

Depending on the exact stem length and height, this combo gets fairly close to the “on the hoods” position with drop bars, and is fairly good regarding power and comfort, but it’s not great for tricky paths because one has to “come off the bar ends” to use the brakes or shifters.

- Ergotec Aerowing, a quite wide 45 degree swept-back bar.

I really did not get on with this at all, because it led to very, very light steering, a serious “tiller” effect, and if I lengthened the stem to get weight on my hands to improve stability/control, it was really rough on the palms and wrists. It’s a very rigid bar and the forward sweeping bit didn’t work for me as an alternative hand position. My take is that it is only good for very sedate riding, probably with it set high so no weight on the hands, possibly best on e-bikes.

- On-One Geoff, which is a cheap knock-off of the ones that come next.

Definite potential because of the range of hand-positions, but I couldn’t set them as high as was really needed without a stem-extender, which I didn’t want to use, and they are both heavy and incredibly rigid, the latter making them quite punishing.

- Jones H-bar, the version with c50mm rise.

These were horribly expensive! But, after a vast amount of fiddling with height, slope-angle, stem length etc, they eventually proved to be the only “flat” bars I’ve ever had that I can tolerate for more than a couple of hours, and they are a lot better for climbing that I ever expected based on their shape. These I e kept on one bike.

- Nitto Albatross, which are effectively North Road Bars, but very slightly wider than typical.

The most elegant bars by far; they look really good! But, they yield very similar handling to the Aerowing, twitchy tiller steering with a short stem, and even with a long stem and set low enough to allow one to put a tiny bit of weight on them at will they still seem overly sensitive to bumps, lumps, adverse camber etc, so one has to ride quite sedately to avoid trouble, not marvellous for climbing either, the only real option is to select a very low gear and twiddle along very slowly (I haven’t tried them upside down yet, but I’m not optimistic, I think they might still be twitchy).

Overall conclusions:

- the key to power and handling is where the centre of mass is in relation to the bottom bracket, ideally pretty much directly over it, so any bar/set-up that doesn't allow you to get mass over the BB doesn’t “feel right”. If mass is too far forward, the steering becomes heavy, and if too far back then steering is too light, and control over imperfect/bad surfaces is poor, although having lots of width does compensate for that;

- with “flat” bars it seems to me much more awkward than on drops to ride for long periods with the back sloped to get weight nicely over the BB, but the hands barely weighted, because the arms and wrists aren’t ideally oriented;

- sitting very upright, with next to no weight on the hands is great for comfort, but poor from a steering control viewpoint, causes great sensitivity to lumps and bumps, and is exceedingly limited in respect of power throughput, it’s only good for what I call “1950s clergyman” riding, so very sedate (unless, I guess, you have a motor to help);

- with anything swept back, getting the combination of height, stem-length, and down-slope right is really, really tricky, and I’m sure utterly unique to each individual. Tiny changes in any of these things seem to have disproportionate effects on comfort and handling;

- a bar that allows several hand positions, thereby various weight distributions, is better than one which dictates pretty much a fixed weight distribution.

I doubt I’ve found out anything that anybody didn’t know already, and I’m sure that the “feel” each person likes is different, but hopefully this might help somebody.

[Jdsk]

Thanks for sharing that.

- the key to power and handling is where the centre of mass is in relation to the bottom bracket, ideally pretty much directly over it, so any bar/set-up that doesn't allow you to get mass over the BB doesn’t “feel right”. If mass is too far forward, the steering becomes heavy, and if too far back then steering is too light, and control over imperfect/bad surfaces is poor, although having lots of width does compensate for that;

Have the experiments included moving the saddle forwards and backwards for each position of the bars?

Jonathan

[Nearholmer]

I’ve only moved the saddle to and fro in relation to the Albatross (North Road-like) ones, because they’ve been paired with a B17 which demands a fairly fixed bum position, it’s quite wide so you can’t comfortably slide about on it too much. And yes, that did alter things, notably power throughout - in fact I moved it back because I was otherwise sitting uncomfortably over the back when applying high power.

The others have all been tried in conjunction with C15 seats, which I habitually slide to-and-fro on to change posture anyway.

As you might guess, with so many variable settings, plus variable test routes, variable weather, and what I’ve had for breakfast on different days, my experiments fall woefully short of a rigorous set of controlled tests, but they’ve consumed enough time already!

[Jdsk]

Thankyou

I think that it's fascinating.

I'm also interested in the problem of fixing the controls on the alternative bars. I'd previously assumed that if you put enough effort into it then solutions were available... even if it meant using friction levers...

Jonathan

[Nearholmer]

Ah, well there I’ve had it easy, because both the bikes involved have flat bar brake levers plus trigger shifters, which fit directly onto all the ones I’ve tried, and only when I cut the “long, nearly flats” down very short did I begin to hit space problems. Things get a bit odd on the Jones H though, because the bodies of the controls end up exactly where you sometimes want to put your hands, so you end up grasping them, rather than the bar itself, but it doesn’t seem to cause a problem.

[cycle tramp]

Nice thread.....one thing which might be worth mentioning is the length of time or number of miles between each of your changes.....
....I've been experimenting with different bar set ups since 2019, and only settled a year ago.. but each time I changed my 'bars, saddle and bottom bracket position (it's in an elliptical mounting) I knew I'd have to put in at least 15 hours riding before it felt comfortable and natural...

How long did you ride with the albatross 'bars fitted?

[Nearholmer]

The Albatrossed bike I’ve used almost exclusively for 25 days. It took no time at all to realise that the initial stem was too short, so I lengthened twice, and moved up, then back down (10mm each direction). I haven’t counted hours, but certainly plenty more than 15.

The other ones I gave a fair trial period to as well, except maybe the Aerowing, which was so unsuitable for me that it didn’t last long at all.

TBH, I really want to like the Albatross, because it looks so blasted good, but unless I reserve that bike for very sedate riding, and it feels underused like that, I don’t think it is going to work. It’s certainly a bar I will hang on to, and I may go back to it later, or hang it on the wall as an ornament.

[Cyclothesist]

It sounds like you've identified that you get on better with drop bars than any of the flat bar variants. That being the case how about trying a widely flared gravel drop bar? Something like the Sonder Bomber maybe?
I'd be reluctant to move the saddle if your position wrt KOPS is already well adjusted.

[cycle tramp]

Thanks for the reply - one last question, when you used the albatross 'bars and the short stem, what position were your upper arms? Where they close to the side of your chest?

[Nearholmer]

1) Wide, and very flared gravel drops? Maybe. I need to save up some Saturday sixpenses before buying any more bars to try though, unless they come from the parts bins at the bike charity, where prices are minimal. The drops on my main bike are “ordinary width” and slightly flared, 16 degrees IIRC.

2) Moving saddle - point well made.

3) Arms while using Albatross - upper arms fairly close to chest, the bars are c100mm wider than my “across outside of shoulders”, so my arms can’t really be far from my chest.

[Cyclothesist]

1) Wide, and very flared gravel drops? Maybe. I need to save up some Saturday sixpenses before buying any more bars to try .

It does sound like you've gone above and beyond in your quest. On the plus side the Sonder Bomber is currently on sale for £29.99. It is a pretty wide flared bar though.

[cycle tramp]

3) Arms while using Albatross - upper arms fairly close to chest, the bars are c100mm wider than my “across outside of shoulders”, so my arms can’t really be far from my chest.

Thanks.... do you have any photos of the bike when it was set up with the short stem?

[Bmblbzzz]

There's some discussion of sweep, rise, width of "comfort mtb bars" and a long list of models – some with links to reviews, all with at least photos – here: https://bikepacking.com/index/comfort-mtb-handlebars/
They seem to be recommending a sweep from 15 to 45 degrees for most people, but obviously it's going to be hugely personal (I think bars are as personal a choice as saddles – though the relative changes brought about by different shapes might apply more broadly).

[Nearholmer]

do you have any photos of the bike when it was set up with the short stem?

Here it is on Day 1, Ride 1, although I’m not sure it’s a very useful photo from the point of view of set-up:

[Nearholmer]

There's some discussion of sweep, rise, width of "comfort mtb bars" and a long list of models

I have had a look at that before, and seeing it again raises a point that is maybe worth thinking about:

Many “alt” bars are designed to go with modern MTB geometry, and to give comfort to people who are used to riding flattish MTB bars, with their knuckles point forwards, and elbows out (the position that I most loath), which is a somewhat different challenge from suiting someone who is used to riding on drops, with the hand/wrist in a “handshake” or “pistol grip” position, and is trying to find bars for a more “road” frame geometry.

The Jones H is a bit different in origin, because his bikes are high and short, not quite to the Geoff Apps degree, but getting on that way.