Cycling UK Forum

......modern steel frames with oversize tubes can be pretty stiff!

the lower head lug is often the site of the highest stresses anyway. Mixte frames usually compound this, because the lateral tubes do not contribute noticeably when it comes to resisting bending stresses in the head tube or torsional stress eg. from working the handlebars. The design used by diamant is undoubtedly stiffer, and can be further improved (mechanically speaking) by adding a set of short lateral stays to the rear wheel..

FWIW I suspect that you could make super lateral stays from golf club shafts. I also suspect that most mixte frames could be very greatly improved by adding a reinforcing tube between the top of the seat tube and the head tube. This will, of course, need to be ovalised where it passes between the lateral stays.

There’s a good list of reputable ‘women’s’ frames here: https://www.cyclingabout.com/a-complete ... ugh-mixte/
The best one is, of course, British …. well supplied by SJS (Thorn Raven step-through). The picture is possibly deceptive and I wonder whether someone might find the step through height on one to be slightly higher or not than the (better of the) simpler designs - I suspect that they’re much the same height but that’s something for a purchaser to check before spending money.

The OP mentions an anglais frame and that term refers to its geometry.

This Peugeot PH15T ladies bicycle stems from 1986 and it has the "anglais" frame geometry with the single sloping top tube, making getting on and off the bike easier.

https://steel-vintage.com/products/peugeot-lady-8

Are all ‘anglais’ frames equal? I’m inclined to think that oversize / stiffer tubes would really be needed to stiffen up such a frame - rather than just changing where the cross or top tube runs between - and then we have differences in both material quality and workmanship. Obviously having the top tube meet well up the seat tube (towards the saddle) helps stiffen the bike up too, Bice’s Diamant frame (pictured earlier) is a good example of that higher tube design and it was doubtless built to high standards.

I note that this thread is also running elsewhere too:
https://www.bikeforums.net/general-cycl ... frame.html

Btw, this will be a 70th birthday present for my wife. Right now she has an anglais frame, but it sometimes sways in curves and she fell recently when we hit a small patch of sand. I’ve tried for decades, but she can’t be convinced to get a men’s frame.

Having seen other posts in this (our) thread and experienced Mixte riding for many years I can but wonder whether her frame was well built (or not) and whether there’s a different fault - or faults - on her bike that’s resulting in poor handling. Tyres might also suddenly loose their grip on loose sand.

Utopia in Germany make a model which has the dropped top tube and the lateral tubes, Utopia 'Kranich' (Crane)

Here's an excellent article by customer Andre Jute giving his experiences and getting quite in depth about the frame design in the latter half of the article.
http://coolmainpress.com/AndreJute'sUtopiaKranich.pdf
They also make a cross frame machine 'The London' and ' Mowe' (The Gull') a similar hybrid of the two styles as 'The Kranich' (The Crane).
https://www.utopia-velo.de/fahrrad/kranich
Click on the red 'Fahrrad' to see the different models
I recently bought a hybrid Saracen with the Anglais style frame (I'd never heard them called that before), It's a lovely comfortable relaxing ride (once I'd changed out the rock hard Marathon pluses it was shod with), but it does shimmy hands-off downhill. I've put some Vittoria Hypers on it and a rack and some guards since I bought it, I like it.

Bice wrote: ↑3 Aug 2024, 4:41pm

So many classy bikes here, Bice. The Carlton Courette looks really beautiful.

Carlton green wrote: ↑4 Aug 2024, 7:00pm There’s a good list of reputable ‘women’s’ frames here: https://www.cyclingabout.com/a-complete ... ugh-mixte/

That's a great list. It's worth pointing out the perhaps obvious fact that in the EU frames that are considered 'ladies' frames here in the UK are just regarded as unisex bikes, and as far as I can tell, the majority of utility and touring riders use them.

I was lucky enough to ride a Fahrrad Manufaktur mixte bike (featured on the list above) for a week in Austria in February - just for day rides and getting around the city. It was a joy to ride and, to my relatively untutored eye, the build quality seemed very high indeed.

daddyduca wrote: ↑3 Aug 2024, 12:10pm I would like to have a mixte frame built for my wife, but no one can source the necessary lateral tubes. Framebuildersupply.com had the lugs needed, but they don’t seem to have the tubes. Does anyone know where I can get some?

Btw, this will be a 70th birthday present for my wife. Right now she has an anglais frame, but it sometimes sways in curves and she fell recently when we hit a small patch of sand. I’ve tried for decades, but she can’t be convinced to get a men’s frame.

The thread maybe didn’t answer your original question in the way that you might have hoped, sometimes that happens. I’m glad you asked the question though because it raised what I, as a mixte rider, found to be interesting, well informed, and helpful comments … hopefully the thread has moved you forward in some way. As I understand the thread’s outcome, rather than a Mixte you’d be better served by an open frame design with a dropped but still quite high top or cross tube (high step, like Bice’s Diamant).

Whatever you choose to do it would be interesting to hear about the outcome. TIA.

This is was way back, ( I think 2016?) at the Bespoke bike show in Bristol, but I spoke to the Reynolds MD at their stand about 531 ( amongst other things) and he said they still supplied 531to certain frame builders if they ask. We were researching step through options for my missus after her accident, but I can't remember if I specifically asked about lateral tubes ( and I don't even know if they were made of 531.....which ultimately is not necessarily that important to your query.........)

But it has jogged my mind to suggest contacting Reynolds to see if they can supply lateral tubes to builders. Website has a contact link.

hoogerbooger wrote: ↑15 Aug 2024, 9:28am This is was way back, ( I think 2016?) at the Bespoke bike show in Bristol, but I spoke to the Reynolds MD at their stand about 531 ( amongst other things) and he said they still supplied 531to certain frame builders if they ask. We were researching step through options for my missus after her accident, but I can't remember if I specifically asked about lateral tubes ( and I don't even know if they were made of 531.....which ultimately is not necessarily that important to your query.........)

But it has jogged my mind to suggest contacting Reynolds to see if they can supply lateral tubes to builders. Website has a contact link.

Looking back over the thread I see that you didn’t go the Mixte route and are perfectly happy with the outcome. For the benefit of the OP and in your own words:

For what it's worth. Condor adjusted the Fratello frame for my Missus to a step through ( Post accident when she was less able). They assured us that modern tube strengths would mean that the ride characteristics wouldn't be that different... to her trashed standard Fratello with horizontal..ish top tube She finds in fine..... although much easier for bottle bosses on standard frame.

The Missus wanted a sportier bike.....like her dead Fratello. So when Condor said a step through version would be pretty similar she went for that.

As an interim I did knock up the attached.....but she didn't like the gear lever action on the 7 speed STI's......and no bottle or rack fixings.... so hardly rode it. ( it's feels nice although too small for me)
The OP seems to suggest he is aware that an "Anglais" style mixte is less stiff/ can be twitchy. However some may just like the style and not be so bothered about frame stiffness, so still a general question out there of what is available for lateral tubes if building a new Anglais style frame.

it shouldn't be too difficult to find tubing to use for the laterals in a mixte frame. The reason I say this is that these tubes are constant diameter, PG. The only thing about it which is slightly odd is that the wall thickness is quite low. Such tubes are widely used in general engineering,eg. made from good quality Cr Mo. This type of tubing is used in 0.8mm wall thickness to make Pedersen frames.

I'm liking the Jackson Mixte.
Zefal do bottle cage fittings that wrap around the tubes that work very well, I have them on a couple of machines ( including the wife's Bob Jackson Mixte Trike) (!)
Carriers can be attached with P clips and sharing the mudguard bolts.
And you can get a gizmo that bolts through the triangle of the forged ends . I ran a Raleigh race frame like that for years . (I may have a couple if you would like them?)

Barrowman wrote: ↑16 Aug 2024, 8:38pm I'm liking the Jackson Mixte.

Me, too.

Bice wrote: ↑17 Aug 2024, 12:42am

Barrowman wrote: ↑16 Aug 2024, 8:38pm I'm liking the Jackson Mixte.

Me, too.

The name Mixte covers a broad design; we - as humans - tend to lump things together but design and build differences that don’t necessarily stand out can make a big difference to performance. I found some images of the Jackson frame on-line and note that the laterals are held well away from the seat tube by suitable stays, that’s not the case in some other manufacturers’ builds, and no doubt those stays are made of high strength material. To my mind those details would helpfully make the frame a bit stiffer in the appropriate directions.

The OP does not clarify what he means by an ‘anglais’ frame. I’d have thought that a traditional open frame (parallel down tubes) with a low step over height would be less stiff than a more modern frame with a higher step over height. Of course we don’t know how well built his wife’s anglais frame is built either.

Carlton green wrote: ↑17 Aug 2024, 7:54am ………I found some images of the Jackson frame on-line and note that the laterals are held well away from the seat tube by suitable stays, that’s not the case in some other manufacturers’ builds, and no doubt those stays are made of high strength material. To my mind those details would helpfully make the frame a bit stiffer in the appropriate directions. …..

The main determinant of the stiffness of a tube is THE DIAMETER. The twin laterals are about 10 or 12mm diameter? About as stiff as a fishing rod.
Gas pipe steel and fancy steel are not significantly different in density or stiffness .
The “stays” which space the laterals from the seat tube are about 8mm diameter.
They do look pretty, though.