Cycling UK and Local Groups - how do they interact from a member’s perspective?

[AllRides]

Hi,

I was out on a ride recently and someone asked me to explain the relationship between Cycling UK and the local CTC. I was at a loss to explain simply and perhaps someone could point me at/share a simple explanation?

I joined Cycling UK but I’ve not ever had any contact with my local CTC. I know the CTC are affiliated (CyclingUK on their tops etc) though. I know funding goes from CyclingUK to the CTC in some way.

I’ve assumed that it works as follows:

You can join Cycling UK but never interact with the local club
You can join your local club but don’t become a Cycling UK member by default
You can join one and then the other but need to do so off your own bat.

I was a little surprised back when I joined that I wasn’t pointed to the local club (or auto-joined) but perhaps there’s some good reason around the structure of CyclingUK I don’t understand?

[PH]

There's a range of groups that come under the Cycling UK banner. Those you've seen advertising the fact, as CUK or CTC, are likely to be a member group and here's what the website says of these:

Cycling UK Member Groups
A network of around 200 groups throughout the UK that provide a wide variety of cycling activities for Cycling UK members and, occasionally, the general public. Many of them have been in existence for around a century! They are nearly all based around a particular town or region. Cycling UK supports these groups with a annual grant and, in return, the groups provide us with a set of annual and financial returns and abide by the guidance in our Policy Handbook.

For a more detailed idea about member groups, you could read that handbook, I think you have to be logged in to download it.
For details on the other sorts of groups:
https://www.cyclinguk.org/local-groups/ ... ling-group

[Philip Benstead]

Hi,

I was out on a ride recently and someone asked me to explain the relationship between Cycling UK and the local CTC. I was at a loss to explain simply and perhaps someone could point me at/share a simple explanation?

I joined Cycling UK but I’ve not ever had any contact with my local CTC. I know the CTC are affiliated (CyclingUK on their tops etc) though. I know funding goes from CyclingUK to the CTC in some way.

I’ve assumed that it works as follows:

You can join Cycling UK but never interact with the local club
You can join your local club but don’t become a Cycling UK member by default
You can join one and then the other but need to do so off your own bat.

I was a little surprised back when I joined that I wasn’t pointed to the local club (or auto-joined) but perhaps there’s some good reason around the structure of CyclingUK I don’t understand?

BTW You cant join "Cycling UK" CUK is a brand of Cyclists Touring Club https://register-of-charities.charityco ... ls/5026584 also https://find-and-update.company-informa ... y/00025185


The brand resembles DAZ washing power, which is made by Procter & Gamble.

[millimole]

My recollection is that the loose connection between local groups and the national organisation is nothing new.

When I started riding with my local group in the 1970s (The Northern Section of the North Mertropolitan D. A.) I had joined the National CTC completely separately and only found out about the local rides from the national magazine.
I don't recall - although it's a long time ago - any check that I was a national member, or indeed any requirement to be one.

[mattheus]

I believe CUK and CTC are the same thing. (one is the public-facing name, one is the name of the charity, or possibly the registered company, I don't pretend to understand the legal subtelties!)

The brand resembles DAZ washing power, which is made by Procter & Gamble.

I think is a very misleading analogy, as Procter & Gamble make many different things (and probably many washing powders).

There is only one CTC, only one CUK.

[Philip Benstead]

I believe CUK and CTC are the same thing. (one is the public-facing name, one is the name of the charity, or possibly the registered company, I don't pretend to understand the legal subtelties!)

Cycling UK is not a legal person. It is just a name. Look at the links it talks about cyclists touring club. CUK is not list in company house nor the charity commission.


The brand resembles DAZ washing power, which is made by Procter & Gamble.

I think is a very misleading analogy, as Procter & Gamble make many different things (and probably many washing powders).

There is only one CTC, only one CUK.

CTC is a legal person, CUK is just a BRAND

[AllRides]

Thanks everyone for such helpful comments.

'milimoles response seems to reflect what I assumed happens. It seems very strange to me that there hasn't at least been some attempt to advertise my local group to me but I guess that's part of the 'loose' arrangement!

Thanks again!

[Chris Jeggo]

I believe CUK and CTC are the same thing. (one is the public-facing name, one is the name of the charity, or possibly the registered company, I don't pretend to understand the legal subtelties!)

Cycling UK is not a legal person. It is just a name. Look at the links it talks about cyclists touring club. CUK is not list in company house nor the charity commission.


The brand resembles DAZ washing power, which is made by Procter & Gamble.

I think is a very misleading analogy, as Procter & Gamble make many different things (and probably many washing powders).

There is only one CTC, only one CUK.

CTC is a legal person, CUK is just a BRAND

"Cycling UK is a trading name of Cyclists' Touring Club (CTC) a company limited by guarantee, registered in England no: 25185. Registered as a charity in England and Wales charity no: 1147607 and in Scotland charity no: SC042541. Registered office: Parklands, Railton Road, Guildford, Surrey GU2 9JX."
- from https://www.cyclinguk.org/

[mattheus]

It seems very strange to me that there hasn't at least been some attempt to advertise my local group to me but I guess that's part of the 'loose' arrangement!

See what happens when you join British Cycling. [clue: exactly the same]

[Chris Jeggo]

In 1974 I joined what is now known as West Surrey Cycling Club (WSCC) by the simple process of joining the CTC. WSCC was then known as West Surrey District Association of the Cyclists' Touring Club, "W Surrey DA, CTC" for short. Over the years, DAs have become known as Member Groups, and CTC has adopted the brand name Cycling UK. Any member of CTC/CUK may participate in any event organised by any DA/Member Group.
I am also a member of other cycling clubs which are not member groups of CUK, for example my local Cycle Users Group, which is affiliated to CUK, i.e. it pays CUK an annual affiliation fee. Members of the Users Group are not entitled to participate in CUK events, but if they wish to do so they may take out Affiliate Membership of CUK, which costs less than full personal membership. Affiliate Members enjoy nearly all of the benefits of CUK membership, the main exception being the bi-monthly magazine "Cycle".
Requirements for participating in events of an affiliated club depend entirely on the rules of that club.

[Chris Jeggo]

Continuing the above ...

It seems very strange to me that there hasn't at least been some attempt to advertise my local group to me but I guess that's part of the 'loose' arrangement!

Some years ago, I can't remember how long ago but it was well before CTC became a charity, our DA area was well defined and CTC offered an annual opportunity to mail a communication to all CTC members within our area, not just the much smaller number who had made themselves known directly to us. I've no idea whether CUK still offers this. Also, we received a monthly or bi-monthly list of names and addresses of all newly enrolled members in our area, and we always sent them a rides list.

[drossall]

My recollection is that the loose connection between local groups and the national organisation is nothing new.

I don't believe it's anything particularly unique, either. There are loads of organisations with both national and local faces, and long histories. Meanwhile, the technology to share data (i.e. membership lists) between centre and regions, reasonably easily and reliably, has only existed for maybe 10 years (20 if you were an organisation with deep pockets and the resolve to invest in custom stuff).

In general, I would see such organisations as dividing into those where you were generally invited to join a local group, which consequently meant that you were recognised as a national member (many sports, many church denominations, Scouting and GirlGuiding for example), and those where you were invited to join a national organisation, which might offer the opportunity of local groups (professional societies such as the British Medical Association, the CTC/CUK, the National Trust, and so on). To promote their events and activities, both national and local levels need to contact people, and so need mailing lists but, at least until the last few years, there was no reliable way to keep those in step. And, often, the local group wanted to promote participation, with whether people were national members not necessarily being a primary consideration.

So, where there was a national list, the local groups still needed their own lists, which would inherently not be in step.

And then you get the structure of cycling, which may not be reflected in other sports. The CTC/CUK has had an affiliation model, certainly for cycling clubs, and I think also for local groups? So, whilst CUK Stevenage may obviously be related closely to CUK national, by contrast my club, which has also tended to affiliate to a whole list of organisations including the BC(F), regional time trial bodies, CTT/RTTC, CTC/CUK and sometimes Sustrans, is explicitly independent of any and all of those. And some CUK groups have also affiliated to racing bodies, I believe.

It's more interesting in a way with BC. Historically, as above, clubs affiliated to the BC(F), CTT/RTTC and other bodies on an equal basis. Now, BC are offering membership services to clubs. So I need to be in BC's database to be a member of my local club, even though that club is only affiliated to BC and is emphatically not an organ of BC, contrary to how a local group might be for CUK. I don't have to be a BC member, but I do have to be a known potential member of BC, in order to be a member of my quite separate club. So that changes the balance of the club's relationship with BC vs CUK.

Meanwhile, some national organisations where the primary membership was local (churches and Scouting/Guiding for certain) took censuses, and so knew how many members they had, but didn't, historically, know who those people were, and in some cases still may not. In my church, for example, when I moved some decades ago, my old local church recommended me to the new, which recognised me as a member on that basis. For the national church, the census increased by one in the new place, and decreased in the other, but they still didn't have my name or see it as a transfer. At the same time, my cycling clubs relied on my honesty only to have first-claim membership with one at any one moment, when I also moved between those.

Given that even being able to have secure shared lists is very recent, solutions for organisations with such distributed membership have tended to start with volunteers and lead people, and the organisations may or may not, even now, have lists for the membership as a whole. (And implementing any system to get a national list involves considerable time commitment from local volunteers who fundamentally signed up to ride their bikes, or whatever, not to spend time in massive data cleansing operations.)

[AllRides]

My recollection is that the loose connection between local groups and the national organisation is nothing new.

I don't believe it's anything particularly unique, either. There are loads of organisations with both national and local faces, and long histories. Meanwhile, the technology to share data (i.e. membership lists) between centre and regions, reasonably easily and reliably, has only existed for maybe 10 years (20 if you were an organisation with deep pockets and the resolve to invest in custom stuff).
….

Fascinating and very enlightening- thank you.

[PH]

It seems very strange to me that there hasn't at least been some attempt to advertise my local group to me but I guess that's part of the 'loose' arrangement!
Thanks again!

My MG used to mail every new CTC member an introductory letter and a copy of our local magazine. In about twenty years I can only recall one member riding with us as a result. That's despite it being a fairly active group with up to five rides a week, I do wish CUK would promote the groups better, at least make them more prominent as a member benefit. Though I've seen records of DA's making this complaint as far back as the 1930's. The reality is, most people join CUK for other reasons and if they were looking for a group to ride with there'll find it. We have riders join us who have never heard of CUK, we recruit for them better than they for us!

[Philip Benstead]

It seems very strange to me that there hasn't at least been some attempt to advertise my local group to me but I guess that's part of the 'loose' arrangement!
Thanks again!

My MG used to mail every new CTC member an introductory letter and a copy of our local magazine. In about twenty years I can only recall one member riding with us as a result. That's despite it being a fairly active group with up to five rides a week, I do wish CUK would promote the groups better, at least make them more prominent as a member benefit. Though I've seen records of DA's making this complaint as far back as the 1930's. The reality is, most people join CUK for other reasons and if they were looking for a group to ride with there'll find it. We have riders join us who have never heard of CUK, we recruit for them better than they for us!

Contacting any new member of CTC is impossible now due to the Data Protection Act.