Dual purpose mountain / touring bicycle

[Vantage]

About 3 months ago after much googling I bought a surly bridge club frameset from Triton cycles for £550. Cheapest I could find it.
One review compared the bikes handling to that of a 90s mountain bike. It wasn't wrong. The addition of an ecycling kit has weighed it down and ruined the handling a bit but before that I could easily describe it as lively and damn good fun. The bike was practically begging to be manhandled at every opportunity. This probably isn't desirable in a touring bike but I have to say, I love it.
Mounts are aplenty with the exception of a spare spoke holder present on the long/disc trucker frames...not the end of the world though. I've used both hydraulic and mechanical disc braking systems over the years and have never had a problem with qr hubs. What people are doing wrong I've no idea.
One thing I didn't like about the frame is the lack of a cable stop for a front derailleur but as you're after a 1 x 11 setup, it isn't a worry for you.
As it designed as a partial touring bike I've noticed the bottom bracket hands a little lower than my previous decathlon 520 and care must be taken not to strike humps I could previously pedal over but that's small potatoes.
The rear axle spacing takes some getting used to. It's a mix match between normal qr and boost spacing so the dropouts need to be squished in slightly when removing/replacing the wheel.
The paint job whilst still pretty new seems to be holding up and the inside of the frame has also been treated to help.prevent rust....unlike a certain other 3 lettered bike frame manufacturer I've had issues with.

[PaulB65]

At this point, I'll mention the usual trinity

https://www.stanforthbikes.co.uk/
https://www.oxfordbikeworks.co.uk/
https://www.thorncycles.co.uk/bikes

Thanks Mr. Tramp !
I know of Thorn Cycles, but not the other two.
Will research

[PaulB65]

What I'm about to suggest doesn't tick all your boxes but there is a Dawes Sardar for sale on this website. The Sardar is a "rough stuff" type bike, a tourer / off road capable bike (but not a full on mountain bike type capability).

It has a reynolds 631 frame with v brake and disc mounts. It is equally at home with drop bars or straight bars.

It's listed here viewtopic.php?t=161669

Not my bike, though I do have one

Thanks Oaklec
The Sardar is certainly a potential solution, and Whatfriends example[https://photos.app.goo.gl/4EKKpUeBrKvWqErb9] has parts that I would choose (TRP cable disks, Tubus rack, dynahub, etc). However I have found that 27,5 wheels over significant advanctages over 26" (roll better for little noticeable loss of nimbleness and loads more modern tyre choices) that I wouldn't want to compromise on that.

[PaulB65]

A summary of my ideal "specification" is:
- quality steel frame and forks with a geometry that would allow me to go and play on "singletrack", but not be too nervous loaded with bags for a month (or six)
- 27,5" wheels with upto 2,4" / 65mm tyres and mudguards
- fittings for front and rear racks, mudguards and bottles
- flat handlebars (will add extensions)
- 1x11 transmission
- threaded bottom bracket

You've got a few competing requirements there. The tyre size puts it well into MTB territory which rules out a lot of the "touring / audax" style bikes like for example the Sonder Santiago (https://alpkit.com/products/sonder-sant ... 1-flat-bar) which comes in flat bar and drop bar variants, 631 steel frame, lots of rack and bottle mounts and also comes as frame only. But it'll only go up to 650b x 47c, not the 65c that you want.

Your "requirement" for QR means that very few new bikes will be suitable - everything except the lowest end stuff is thru-axle now, cos it's far better, especially with disc brakes. You can get end-cap adaptors for many wheels which will convert thru-axle hubs to QR but going the other way is almost impossible - it's easier and cheaper to just buy a thru-axle wheelset. I would really urge you to reconsider that QR thing cos it'll be a severe limiting factor for wheels and parts further down the line and even now, it'll pretty much restrict you to buying a secondhand frame.

I had to go the same way when I bought my new road bike and my new MTB - not even worth trying to find 135mm frames, just accept that everything has changed (for the better!) and go with it. You might be able to sell your old 135mm QR wheels now while there's still a market for them.

Cotic (UK brand) do the excellent Cascade. Simiilar to the Santiago linked to above but much more towards the MTB end. Again it'll take drop or flat bars, it's an 853 steel frame and can take suspension or rigid forks, 700c or 650b wheels and tyre clearance for 2.4" - so it fits that requirement.
https://www.cotic.co.uk/product/cascade
The pic on the home page shows it with drop bars but scroll down and there's a gallery link at the bottom showing a variety of build options. Cotic do a "semi-custom" build set where they offer packages of components, a sort of Bronze / Silver / Gold but they're very open to all sorts of customisation. Plus - all designed in the UK so it meets that part of the description too!

Thanks Rareposter !
I accept that my QR preference is an every increasing challenge, and I accept that I may have to compromise on that.
Otherwise, the Cotic Cascade looks perfect. All reviews refer to the "fun" element of it's handling and ride which for me is very important (I have a car, but I choose to ride, and I want that choice to be enjoyable). The position look "long" like the bicycles that I like to ride (Raleigh Record Ace, Royal and cross country mountain bicycle) and it is not missing anything for touring. Although the wheels are 29", 27,5" will fit with no problem.
And the same thinking puts Spa's Rove back into contention.
I think that I need to pay a visit to Chesterfield and Harrogate next time I'm in the UK

[PaulB65]

A summary of my ideal "specification" is:
- quality steel frame and forks with a geometry that would allow me to go and play on "singletrack", but not be too nervous loaded with bags for a month (or six)
- 27,5" wheels with upto 2,4" / 65mm tyres and mudguards
- fittings for front and rear racks, mudguards and bottles
- flat handlebars (will add extensions)
- 1x11 transmission
- threaded bottom bracket

You've got a few competing requirements there.

My thoughts as well. Compromises need to be made to cover that spectrum and there's little indication of where they'll be made. I'm also pretty sure if I were looking for a new bike, I wouldn't use the hubs I have in the spares box as the starting point, it's just the wrong way round.
I had a play with a bike towards the MTB end of that scale, a Surly Ogre, I liked it in some ways but it never felt quite right and my off-roading doesn't require anything that capable. Even if it did I think I'd prefer old school MTB, the modern style with a long TT and short stem felt a bit alien to me. After a couple of years I swapped it for a Thorn Nomad which suits me better. If not building from the hubs up, I'm sure there'll be something in the Spa range to suit, the Rove has already been mentioned, is the Wayfarer suitable for 650B? And if so I wonder what the tyre clearance would be.
If you want European then it gets expensive, you may as well go all the way and get British, Stanforth's Kibo is available 650B, or there's a choice from Shand, or if you've very deep pockets Mercian would happily build you something, their High Peak model shows they're open to new ideas (More so than some members of this forum )
https://www.merciancycles.co.uk/frames/high-peak/

Having said that, I'm still doubtful that any one bike will fill both requirements well, though there is of course the argument that any bike will do.

Thanks PH

There always seems to be a gap between what I want and what I can get

I wasn't planning on using old hubs to build a new bike - but it is remarkable how many 126mm, 130mm and 135mm Shimano HG hubs (some of them new) and 8, 9, 10 and 11 speed cassettes that I have accumulated over 20 years of keeping the family in (reasonable) bicycles. I have an entirely unreasonable desire to not waste this and also not start creating a collection of another standard. Perhaps I need to address this issue first !

I agree that "any bike will do" but the difference between "any bike" and a "good one" is night and day. Once you've ridden a bicycle that puts a smile on your face, it's very dissapointing to go back to one that doesn"t.

[PaulB65]

A summary of my ideal "specification" is:
- quality steel frame and forks with a geometry that would allow me to go and play on "singletrack", but not be too nervous loaded with bags for a month (or six)
- 27,5" wheels with upto 2,4" / 65mm tyres and mudguards
- fittings for front and rear racks, mudguards and bottles
- flat handlebars (will add extensions)
- 1x11 transmission
- threaded bottom bracket

Ok it's 29" but the Jones design meets a lot of these requirements as a dual use MTB and all-terrain tourer - with the H-bars fitted it's the best blend of technical off-road ability and long-distance touring comfort and handling that I know of. With the right tyres I can ride all day on the lanes and it'll go down all but the steepest, most tricky downhill runs when on MTB tyres. It's an incredibly comfortable position for touring. There's other similar geometry bikes around but none that I'm aware of that have the mix of characteristics the Jones has.
Downsides are the lack of guard mounts (use p-clips), no rack mounts on the truss fork but plenty on the unicrown fork option, and the 135mm front hub though it does mean a bombproof wheel and great front end tracking. Mines' 12 years old and has been down the GDMTBR, across Spain, Israel, French Alps 2x and many UK trips, locally and Scotland and Wales. Still on the original wheels although the Hope hub shell is starting to crack. A highly rated bike imho. If you can pick up an older QR version S/H it could be a great buy.

Thanks JamesO
In my ignorance I had not realised that Jones made bicycles and not just handlebars (duh).
Mr. Jones philosophy agrees with mine, except that as a professional he know more than I ever will.
I suspect that second hand ones will be challenging to find, but I will look...

[PaulB65]

I would suggest that you get as old steel road frame, and equip it with new 650B wheels and drum brakes.

Any lack of mounts for racks/mudguards can be addressed by using brackets which are secured by the QR plus special clamps. Each of the latter can be made from two Al blocks, shaped to fit the fork blades exactly including a rubber liner, which you can make using old inner tubes. You can reshape (carve) the Al blocks using a dremel tool plus some modified rotozip bits. Alternatively the special clamps can be made using sheet metal with shaped cheek pieces and again a rubber liner. Top tip; use paper templates for the sheet metal parts.

The resulting bike will be a compromise of course, but if you start with the right frame it will be strong enough for the MTBing and it will take the touring load. The steering will be different to any bike designed for those purposes, but you will get used to it. Note that if you have big feet, heel clearance with panniers fitted is likely to be a problem, and it is likely that you will have to fit at least one front pannier prior to fitting the rears.

Thanks Brucey,

It appears that my OP was not very clear, because I effectively already have better than your suggestion. I can add bags, "bike packing style" an racks (with P clips) to my moutain bike which already has 27,5" wheels and disk brakes. Its on this bike that I have learned about this wheel size and disk brakes.

I have considered looking for a second hand 27,5" quality steel mountian bike with disk brakes and adapting it to touring with touring / gravel tyres and appropriate racks, but I have not found a suitable one. And, as I am intend to replace two bicycles with one I can justify buying a new one.

The search continues

[PaulB65]

About 3 months ago after much googling I bought a surly bridge club frameset from Triton cycles for £550. Cheapest I could find it.
One review compared the bikes handling to that of a 90s mountain bike. It wasn't wrong. The addition of an ecycling kit has weighed it down and ruined the handling a bit but before that I could easily describe it as lively and damn good fun. The bike was practically begging to be manhandled at every opportunity. This probably isn't desirable in a touring bike but I have to say, I love it.
Mounts are aplenty with the exception of a spare spoke holder present on the long/disc trucker frames...not the end of the world though. I've used both hydraulic and mechanical disc braking systems over the years and have never had a problem with qr hubs. What people are doing wrong I've no idea.
One thing I didn't like about the frame is the lack of a cable stop for a front derailleur but as you're after a 1 x 11 setup, it isn't a worry for you.
As it designed as a partial touring bike I've noticed the bottom bracket hands a little lower than my previous decathlon 520 and care must be taken not to strike humps I could previously pedal over but that's small potatoes.
The rear axle spacing takes some getting used to. It's a mix match between normal qr and boost spacing so the dropouts need to be squished in slightly when removing/replacing the wheel.
The paint job whilst still pretty new seems to be holding up and the inside of the frame has also been treated to help.prevent rust....unlike a certain other 3 lettered bike frame manufacturer I've had issues with.

Thanks Vantage,

I have enjoyed the posts of your Bridge Club (and I love the colour) and the bike on paper meets all my requirements (it was, in fact, the bicycle that started me thinking of a dual purpose mountain / routing bicycle). However I have yet to ride one, and all the review that I have read have focused on it's touring abilities and have not mentioned it's off-orad "fun-ness".

I suspect that I need to go and find one to try, or an equivalent European alternative.

[oaklec]

Has anyone suggested the Sonder Camino or santiago yet? https://alpkit.com/collections/sonder-bikes

I think they can be specced with 650b wheels

[rareposter]

Has anyone suggested the Sonder Camino or santiago yet? https://alpkit.com/collections/sonder-bikes

I think they can be specced with 650b wheels

I did, a little way up there ^^ but the Santiago won't take the 65c tyres that the OP wants, it'll only go to 650b x 47c
I thought of the Camino but the OP specified steel, the Camino is aluminium. It is a great bike though.

https://alpkit.com/products/sonder-cami ... apex1-flat

[Brucey]

..... I effectively already have better than your suggestion.......

that is very unlikely. IMHO it is very likely that you have a slightly heavy, needlessly stiff bike, not in any way comparable to what I have in mind. What do you have at present?

[oaklec]

is this another summitfreedom type thread?

[PaulB65]

..... I effectively already have better than your suggestion.......

that is very unlikely. IMHO it is very likely that you have a slightly heavy, needlessly stiff bike, not in any way comparable to what I have in mind. What do you have at present?

My current mountain bike is a needlessly still, but (for a mountain bike), not very heavy Decathlon Rockrider 900:
https://share.icloud.com/photos/015BdG2 ... I375_eNFPA

[PaulB65]

is this another summitfreedom type thread?

Not knowingly ... I have not posted on this forum under any other alias.
I might be a bit ignorant and possibly stupid, but that's a good reason for joining a foum like this, in order to learn the ways of the more knowledgeable ...

[oaklec]

is this another summitfreedom type thread?

Not knowingly ... I have not posted on this forum under any other alias.
I might be a bit ignorant and possibly stupid, but that's a good reason for joining a foum like this, in order to learn the ways of the more knowledgeable ...

Apologies, I didn't intend it to come across that way, more asking if this thread is one that can never be solved due to the initial requirements. That it will run and run with never ending suggestions being thrown into the pot