Cycling UK Forum

Hi Everyone,

I have recently read about Kona's Unit X and Surly's Bridge Club and I have deceived to try to replace my recent(ish) Rockrider 900 and last century Royal touring bicycle with one, preferably European, machine.

I like the 27,5" wheels, 1x11 transmission, disk brakes and old school cross country mountain bike handling of the RR900, but it's aluminium and there are no luggage mounts. I have learned from my Royal that there is not much that beats four low panniers for carrying kit - even if modern camping kit and clothing is lighter than when I bought it in 1990.

I have also recently learned to love wider tyres - 32mm on my Record Ace and 48mm for trail use on the RR900 - but I can't get more than 32mm on the Royal.

I have lots of 135mm Shimano HG mountain bicycle spares, never had a problem with the traditional QR axles and don't see any need to change to Boost or any other newer / bigger standard.

The Kona appears to be more mountain bicycle than tourer, but it was only available with QR axles in 2018 and 2019, and while the Bridge Club is QR compatible, it is more touring oriented (and the frame seems "more basic" and heavier). Both are either rare or relatively expensive and I would rather buy something from a manufacturer on the east side of the Atlantic (even if most frames come from far east).

I am getting to that age soon when I will have much more time for touring and I would like to have this problem solved, so that I can spend mental energy on destinations and routes, and not mechanics .

A summary of my ideal "specification" is:
- quality steel frame and forks with a geometry that would allow me to go and play on "singletrack", but not be too nervous loaded with bags for a month (or six)
- 27,5" wheels with upto 2,4" / 65mm tyres and mudguards
- fittings for front and rear racks, mudguards and bottles
- flat handlebars (will add extensions)
- 1x11 transmission
- threaded bottom bracket

Spa, for once, don't seem to have an appropriate solution as the Rove is built for Boost axles.
I am quite happy to build up from a frame, or take second hand machine and adapt the parts to my liking.
So what would people recommend ?

Thanks in advance

Paul

Not a class of bike I k ow anything about, really, but the Rove always puts me in mind of the Genesis Longitude.

This website might have something like:

https://www.cyclingabout.com/

Kona Unit X is designed as a 29+ " bike. The Surly Bridge Club may be the better option if you prefer 27.5 wheel size. Maybe even consider the Surly Grappler if the geometry suits?

At this point, I'll mention the usual trinity

https://www.stanforthbikes.co.uk/
https://www.oxfordbikeworks.co.uk/
https://www.thorncycles.co.uk/bikes

.. and keeping it east of the Atlantic, Oxfordbikeworks and Stanforth frames are built to your preference/order in the UK.

What I'm about to suggest doesn't tick all your boxes but there is a Dawes Sardar for sale on this website. The Sardar is a "rough stuff" type bike, a tourer / off road capable bike (but not a full on mountain bike type capability).

It has a reynolds 631 frame with v brake and disc mounts. It is equally at home with drop bars or straight bars.

It's listed here viewtopic.php?t=161669

Not my bike, though I do have one

Do Surly make something suitable? It sounds like the sort of thing they'd do. Or maybe get an expedition touring bike, although I have no idea whether they exist with a 27.5 wheel. When I wanted something like that I started out with an old steel Trek MTB frame which had all the mounts etc, then graduated to something made-to-measure, but the made-to-measure option is expensive and the Trek is 30 years old now, so probably not a sensible choice.

pq wrote: ↑13 Aug 2024, 12:07am Do Surly make something suitable? It sounds like the sort of thing they'd do. Or maybe get an expedition touring bike, although I have no idea whether they exist with a 27.5 wheel.

All three on my above list do.. Although that's rather the refreshing thing about disc and hub brakes - you're not tied to a set of wheels with the same diameter... so you could have a set of 27.5 x 45mm for road use, switching to 26 x 2.5" for off road work, with very little in the variance of over all tyre circumstance.. On the provision that there's no brake bridge or rear stay bridge on the way yiu might be able to squeeze in a pair of 700

PaulB65 wrote: ↑12 Aug 2024, 5:40pm A summary of my ideal "specification" is:
- quality steel frame and forks with a geometry that would allow me to go and play on "singletrack", but not be too nervous loaded with bags for a month (or six)
- 27,5" wheels with upto 2,4" / 65mm tyres and mudguards
- fittings for front and rear racks, mudguards and bottles
- flat handlebars (will add extensions)
- 1x11 transmission
- threaded bottom bracket

You've got a few competing requirements there. The tyre size puts it well into MTB territory which rules out a lot of the "touring / audax" style bikes like for example the Sonder Santiago (https://alpkit.com/products/sonder-sant ... 1-flat-bar) which comes in flat bar and drop bar variants, 631 steel frame, lots of rack and bottle mounts and also comes as frame only. But it'll only go up to 650b x 47c, not the 65c that you want.

Your "requirement" for QR means that very few new bikes will be suitable - everything except the lowest end stuff is thru-axle now, cos it's far better, especially with disc brakes. You can get end-cap adaptors for many wheels which will convert thru-axle hubs to QR but going the other way is almost impossible - it's easier and cheaper to just buy a thru-axle wheelset. I would really urge you to reconsider that QR thing cos it'll be a severe limiting factor for wheels and parts further down the line and even now, it'll pretty much restrict you to buying a secondhand frame.

I had to go the same way when I bought my new road bike and my new MTB - not even worth trying to find 135mm frames, just accept that everything has changed (for the better!) and go with it. You might be able to sell your old 135mm QR wheels now while there's still a market for them.

Cotic (UK brand) do the excellent Cascade. Simiilar to the Santiago linked to above but much more towards the MTB end. Again it'll take drop or flat bars, it's an 853 steel frame and can take suspension or rigid forks, 700c or 650b wheels and tyre clearance for 2.4" - so it fits that requirement.
https://www.cotic.co.uk/product/cascade
The pic on the home page shows it with drop bars but scroll down and there's a gallery link at the bottom showing a variety of build options. Cotic do a "semi-custom" build set where they offer packages of components, a sort of Bronze / Silver / Gold but they're very open to all sorts of customisation. Plus - all designed in the UK so it meets that part of the description too!

Damn... as much as it irks me to admit it, Rareposter has a point. QR traditionally don't play that well with disc brakes - there's been incidents where the force of braking has caused the axle to rotate around the clamped disc effectively causing the qr to loosen... not all the time, but probably enough to see through axle mounts to become a standard part in the future, just to keep the lawyers happy..
For those of us who use older tech or even recycled parts new frames with drop outs (as opposed to through mounts) might be something of an issue in the far future. Start hoarding those old frames now!

rareposter wrote: ↑13 Aug 2024, 8:45am

PaulB65 wrote: ↑12 Aug 2024, 5:40pm A summary of my ideal "specification" is:
- quality steel frame and forks with a geometry that would allow me to go and play on "singletrack", but not be too nervous loaded with bags for a month (or six)
- 27,5" wheels with upto 2,4" / 65mm tyres and mudguards
- fittings for front and rear racks, mudguards and bottles
- flat handlebars (will add extensions)
- 1x11 transmission
- threaded bottom bracket

You've got a few competing requirements there.

My thoughts as well. Compromises need to be made to cover that spectrum and there's little indication of where they'll be made. I'm also pretty sure if I were looking for a new bike, I wouldn't use the hubs I have in the spares box as the starting point, it's just the wrong way round.
I had a play with a bike towards the MTB end of that scale, a Surly Ogre, I liked it in some ways but it never felt quite right and my off-roading doesn't require anything that capable. Even if it did I think I'd prefer old school MTB, the modern style with a long TT and short stem felt a bit alien to me. After a couple of years I swapped it for a Thorn Nomad which suits me better. If not building from the hubs up, I'm sure there'll be something in the Spa range to suit, the Rove has already been mentioned, is the Wayfarer suitable for 650B? And if so I wonder what the tyre clearance would be.
If you want European then it gets expensive, you may as well go all the way and get British, Stanforth's Kibo is available 650B, or there's a choice from Shand, or if you've very deep pockets Mercian would happily build you something, their High Peak model shows they're open to new ideas (More so than some members of this forum )
https://www.merciancycles.co.uk/frames/high-peak/

Having said that, I'm still doubtful that any one bike will fill both requirements well, though there is of course the argument that any bike will do.

PH wrote: ↑14 Aug 2024, 2:19pm ....... I wouldn't use the hubs I have in the spares box as the starting point, it's just the wrong way round. .........

Damn! I was hoping to flog him some of my spares I collected but never used!

A summary of my ideal "specification" is:
- quality steel frame and forks with a geometry that would allow me to go and play on "singletrack", but not be too nervous loaded with bags for a month (or six)
- 27,5" wheels with upto 2,4" / 65mm tyres and mudguards
- fittings for front and rear racks, mudguards and bottles
- flat handlebars (will add extensions)
- 1x11 transmission
- threaded bottom bracket

Ok it's 29" but the Jones design meets a lot of these requirements as a dual use MTB and all-terrain tourer - with the H-bars fitted it's the best blend of technical off-road ability and long-distance touring comfort and handling that I know of. With the right tyres I can ride all day on the lanes and it'll go down all but the steepest, most tricky downhill runs when on MTB tyres. It's an incredibly comfortable position for touring. There's other similar geometry bikes around but none that I'm aware of that have the mix of characteristics the Jones has.
Downsides are the lack of guard mounts (use p-clips), no rack mounts on the truss fork but plenty on the unicrown fork option, and the 135mm front hub though it does mean a bombproof wheel and great front end tracking. Mines' 12 years old and has been down the GDMTBR, across Spain, Israel, French Alps 2x and many UK trips, locally and Scotland and Wales. Still on the original wheels although the Hope hub shell is starting to crack. A highly rated bike imho. If you can pick up an older QR version S/H it could be a great buy.

I would suggest that you get as old steel road frame, and equip it with new 650B wheels and drum brakes.

Any lack of mounts for racks/mudguards can be addressed by using brackets which are secured by the QR plus special clamps. Each of the latter can be made from two Al blocks, shaped to fit the fork blades exactly including a rubber liner, which you can make using old inner tubes. You can reshape (carve) the Al blocks using a dremel tool plus some modified rotozip bits. Alternatively the special clamps can be made using sheet metal with shaped cheek pieces and again a rubber liner. Top tip; use paper templates for the sheet metal parts.

The resulting bike will be a compromise of course, but if you start with the right frame it will be strong enough for the MTBing and it will take the touring load. The steering will be different to any bike designed for those purposes, but you will get used to it. Note that if you have big feet, heel clearance with panniers fitted is likely to be a problem, and it is likely that you will have to fit at least one front pannier prior to fitting the rears.