Cycling UK Forum

cycle tramp wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024, 11:53am I fink.... you're over thinking it.. many of us here have completed size-able mileages on really quite basic machines...

Well said! (steady on, we're agreeing again... )

And as I said in my post on the bottom of page 1:

rareposter wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024, 9:10am you only really learn this by DOING. Not by sitting on a forum accumulating mostly subjective opinions - and actually most of the stuff posted has reasonable arguments for and against 3x, 2x and 1x - this discussion could go on for years with the same "I prefer 3x because..." vs "I prefer 1x because..." and neither person will be right or wrong.

I've done up to 300km rides / audax etc on my singlespeed road bike. Admittedly I pick the flatter routes, I'd never try and use it for the Fred Whitton but it's a surprisingly capable (and very simple!) bike that will still cope with even reasonably substantive hills.

However the whole point of knowing that it (and I) are capable of that is cos I go out and ride it, not sit at home wondering if it needs an inch lower gear...

cycle tramp wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024, 11:53am

biker38109 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024, 7:39am I read that small gaps between gears is good for long hill climbs to 'keep cadence'. Is that right?

I fink.... you're over thinking it.. many of us here have completed size-able mileages on really quite basic machines...

I fink that underfinking is a much greater issue. But we humans do like to reduce every single matter into a nice and universal binary right-wrong, eh?

Once upon a time I completed sizeable mileages through the winter months on a single gear fixie. (It was the fashion at the time, amongst amateur racers, to do this). But I wouldn't dream of doing a Pennine tour or a road race on such a bike. There are better options.

Sometimes we humans get a bit ideological about the strangest things, even cycling habits and preferences! Weird.

*****************
Anyroadup, may I recommend a try at overthinking for a spell. When you do, you discover that, in fact, you've been badly underthinking all sorts; and that many things are revealed by delving deep into the ins, outs, crevices, nooks and even dangerous sink holes of thinking.

Strangely, one may get into a mental state when cycling in which one part does the cycling but another ponders, oh, all sorts. It can help get the miles under the wheels, see?

..I'll spilt the difference.. and say we're focusing on the wrong thing... do we care very much how a saucepan is made or whether our cultery is stainless steel, silver or titanium? No because the import thing isn't the equipment but rather the food...
..on the provision a bike can go, stop and is reasonably comfortable for the length of the journey.. then the most important thing is where, why and when do you cycle..

The important thing about faith isn't that you don't eat bacon or drink alcohol or watch television, but that you believe in it... likewise the important thing about your bike isn't that its made of bamboo or spider webs or steel or whatever, but that it is ridden...

pwa wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024, 11:33am.....If I thought I could use new 11 or 12 speed mechs with my 9 speed drivetrains, I'd have bought one or two nice ones already.....

I have invented a gizmo that allows you to do exactly that. Works on any bike with exposed gear cables.

Manc33 wrote: ↑30 Aug 2024, 8:39pm I think 9-Speed is the sweet spot. All the parts are cheaper than 11s.

Sheldon Brown was probably referring to cassettes that didn't have very low gearing, like 32t or more on the cassette. He could have also written that article a long time ago. There might have been a time when 8-Speed was all fancy, but not in 2024.

Having more sprockets only has one benefit - smaller gaps between gears. There is only one cassette I know of on 9-Speed that starts with 11t, ends with 32t and doesn't have a gap of 3 teeth from 17 to 20 or from 18 to 21 - the cheap Shimano Altus CS-HG200-9 that has 11/13/15/17/19/21/24/28/32. This to me is the perfect cassette.

If your triple chainset has a 22t or 24t then there is no real point having a cassette sprocket bigger than 32t, even if you were touring with a load. I went to 11-Speed a while back (and went back to 9-Speed again). Beyond 22x40t it became impossible for me to balance, because I had to pedal like mad, going 3 MPH or less. Not to mention the strain that must put on the chain and the spokes of the rear wheel.

I even had 22x51t at one point, but that was short lived because it's a bridge too far with how low the gearing is.

Another vote for 3 x 9 ( edit should've read 2 x 9 Cassette/Freewheel
Shimano HG201, 9 speed, 11-36t )

--- I have had 2x10 ( tiagra -- not fussed cos of shifting problems when they wear a bit ) and I still have 2x11 ( 105 ) and 2x11 XT and yes they are good but the price of spares is scary. £70 a few years ago for a cassette !

( 2x9 ) shifts perfectly and has enough range.

Cugel wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024, 12:13pm

cycle tramp wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024, 11:53am

biker38109 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024, 7:39am I read that small gaps between gears is good for long hill climbs to 'keep cadence'. Is that right?

I fink.... you're over thinking it.. many of us here have completed size-able mileages on really quite basic machines...

Anyroadup, may I recommend a try at overthinking for a spell. When you do, you discover that, in fact, you've been badly underthinking all sorts..

Okay then, overthinking things now......

....damn, my brain had told me I need to spend less time on this forum.....

Cowsham wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024, 1:08pm

Manc33 wrote: ↑30 Aug 2024, 8:39pm I think 9-Speed is the sweet spot. All the parts are cheaper than 11s.

Sheldon Brown was probably referring to cassettes that didn't have very low gearing, like 32t or more on the cassette. He could have also written that article a long time ago. There might have been a time when 8-Speed was all fancy, but not in 2024.

Having more sprockets only has one benefit - smaller gaps between gears. There is only one cassette I know of on 9-Speed that starts with 11t, ends with 32t and doesn't have a gap of 3 teeth from 17 to 20 or from 18 to 21 - the cheap Shimano Altus CS-HG200-9 that has 11/13/15/17/19/21/24/28/32. This to me is the perfect cassette.

If your triple chainset has a 22t or 24t then there is no real point having a cassette sprocket bigger than 32t, even if you were touring with a load. I went to 11-Speed a while back (and went back to 9-Speed again). Beyond 22x40t it became impossible for me to balance, because I had to pedal like mad, going 3 MPH or less. Not to mention the strain that must put on the chain and the spokes of the rear wheel.

I even had 22x51t at one point, but that was short lived because it's a bridge too far with how low the gearing is.

Another vote for 3 x 9

--- I have had 2x10 ( tiagra -- not fussed cos of shifting problems when they wear a bit ) and I still have 2x11 ( 105 ) and 2x11 XT and yes they are good but the price of spares is scary. £70 a few years ago for a cassette !

3x9 shifts perfectly and has enough range.

Where are you buying your cassettes? My last 11speed Shimano 105 11-32 cassette cost £42, about a year ago.

cycle tramp wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024, 11:53am I fink.... you're over thinking it.. many of us here have completed size-able mileages on really quite basic machines...

This made me laugh, nearly every rider I know who has a simpler bike, including yourself, has put a huge amount of thought into it. Far more than the average rider who's picked up the latest complicated thing from the nearest bike shop or online.

..as someone who has built many bikes in the last twenty or some years - the chances of you getting it perfectly right on your first time are slim...

Which demonstrates the point, you advocate the "Any bike will do" philosophy, but you haven't lived by it. Maybe you wouldn't have been through so many bikes with a bit more thought.

Where I agree that most riding can be done on most bikes - It's something I've both posted many times and advocate IRL. What if someone doesn't yet have a bike on which to find the answers for themselves? They can decrease the risk of it being the wrong one, by asking the right questions. Getting it wrong might not be a disaster, though there's usually a cost, and I'd suggest that many of the bikes gathering dust because the rider found cycling too hard, could have been avoided with better choices.
Lastly, the OP has posted the question in the Technical section of the forum, there are technical advantages and disadvantages to all gearing choices, but very few of the answers have even touched on those.

cycle tramp wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024, 12:36pm ..I'll spilt the difference.. and say we're focusing on the wrong thing... do we care very much how a saucepan is made or whether our cultery is stainless steel, silver or titanium? No because the import thing isn't the equipment but rather the food...
..on the provision a bike can go, stop and is reasonably comfortable for the length of the journey.. then the most important thing is where, why and when do you cycle..

The important thing about faith isn't that you don't eat bacon or drink alcohol or watch television, but that you believe in it... likewise the important thing about your bike isn't that its made of bamboo or spider webs or steel or whatever, but that it is ridden...

This is one of the reasons why monks like hair shirts (well .... not really "like") - what matters isn't the clothes but what you do in 'em, they say, whilst also feeling smug for punishing themselves to please their nasty god.

From one point of view this is so. Some monks did a lot of good things despite the constant scratchin' & itchin'. From another point of view it becomes clear that one can do an awful lot more if the clothes suit the doing rather than some mad "faith".

So, hairshirt bicycle equivalents ...... ? Not for moi, thenk yew! My princess pea-sensitivity along with a desire to get up steep hills without a hernia and along all the roads and tracks without heating up bearings, getting bum-blisters or crashing into a ditch 'cos the brakes are Victorian ... this means better bike clothes suited to the purpose. I mean .... would you walk up Scafell in your slippers? (I have seen some who do, mind).

PH wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024, 1:55pm

cycle tramp wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024, 11:53am I fink.... you're over thinking it.. many of us here have completed size-able mileages on really quite basic machines...

This made me laugh, nearly every rider I know who has a simpler bike, including yourself, has put a huge amount of thought into it.

..as someone who has built many bikes in the last twenty or some years - the chances of you getting it perfectly right on your first time are slim...

Which demonstrates the point, you advocate the "Any bike will do" philosophy, but you haven't lived by it. Maybe you wouldn't have been through so many bikes with a bit more thought.

Where I agree that most riding can be done on most bikes - It's something I've both posted many times and advocate IRL. What if someone doesn't yet have a bike on which to find the answers for themselves? They can decrease the risk of it being the wrong one, by asking the right questions.

Damn.... you're right. However I'm my defence, I've not been the same person, with the same outlook on life, thought those twenty years...
I started with a social group of cyclists, moved across to the Sunday morning (faster) riders, gave that up for touring, before setting on being a utility cyclist... so I went through several different frames (and variances of them).... however I only knew that the faster cycling groups weren't for me, through my frustrations of cycling with them and not having (or ever will have) the fitness to keep up... I did several years of touring before I worked out that the longer tours of over a week, just weren't for me... I was frustrated with the pace and I hated the fact that one facet of my life dominated every other...

..I don't think 20 years ago I could have gone 'right, I'll be a utility cyclist' without trying the other flavours first.. I don't think my ego or my curiosity would have allowed it, although if it had done, I would have saved alot of dosh and probably loads of weekends tinkering in the shed as well...

Cycling is a great way of finding out who you are, what you like and what your priorities are.. however you can't hunt for these on the Internet, or ask forum members about.. the only way you'll find out is through experience .. you are after all a unique pattern spun by the universe...

..as someone much cleverer than me once wrote 'you have to live the questions, before you can live the answers' - self knowledge through cycling, cycling through self-knowledge

cycle tramp wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024, 1:34pm

Cugel wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024, 12:13pm

cycle tramp wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024, 11:53am


I fink.... you're over thinking it.. many of us here have completed size-able mileages on really quite basic machines...

Anyroadup, may I recommend a try at overthinking for a spell. When you do, you discover that, in fact, you've been badly underthinking all sorts..

Okay then, overthinking things now......

....damn, my brain had told me I need to spend less time on this forum.....

Der forum is a very fine tool for exposing and clarifying and analysing and amending and rejigging and widening and ...... one's thinking. It's all too easy to sit in isolation getting ever more ossified in not just the hip joints but the wee noggin. Soon such folk become Alf Garnet or Mrs Whitehoose, filled with certainties, as many as five (which is all they feel are needed).

PH wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024, 1:55pm
Lastly, the OP has posted the question in the Technical section of the forum, there are technical advantages and disadvantages to all gearing choices, but very few of the answers have even touched on those.

Where are your lists of these advantages and disadvantages we dunces have failed to notice or discuss? I'm always eager to think about more stuff, as you know.

Cugel wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024, 2:56pm

cycle tramp wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024, 12:36pm ..on the provision a bike can go, stop and is reasonably comfortable for the length of the journey.. then the most important thing is where, why and when do you cycle..

This is one of the reasons why monks like hair shirts (well .... not really "like") - what matters isn't the clothes but what you do in 'em, they say, whilst also feeling smug for punishing themselves to please their nasty god.

My princess pea-sensitivity along with a desire to get up steep hills without a hernia and along all the roads and tracks without heating up bearings, getting bum-blisters or crashing into a ditch 'cos the brakes are Victorian ... this means better bike clothes suited to the purpose. I mean .... would you walk up Scafell in your slippers? (I have seen some who do, mind).

One of the most important things anyone can ask before they pick up a spanner and start to build a bike is 'what do I want to do with it?' Its fundamental. Its why we're not using f1 race cars as taxis or tractors as ambulances.

Your gravel bike fulfills the need of tackling steep terrain, over a wide variety of loose surfaces, in all sorts of weather. My bike fulfills the need of taking me to the shops so I can try and buy as much cheese as possible.. and perhaps do some wildlife spotting on the way...

Yeah, I could fit a massive load of gears to my bike and some 4 pot disc brakes.. but I wouldn't get the full use out of either equipment and all it would do is make my bike attractive to bike thieves...

Equally you could fit a front basket to carry cheese on your bike - but unless there's a cheese shop in the areas in which you cycle it's going to be a bit pointless.

..I'm lucky in the fact that I live in Somerset which I'd fairly flat so the same brake and gear set which takes me to the nearest shop, is actually also capable of taking me to Glastonbury, Wells, Cheddar, Weston Super Mare.. if I'm prepared to walk up the hills which border Somerset (Exmoor, Blavkdowns) then i've also got Lynmouth, and the Jurassic Coast to visit.

..I appreciate that others may not to so topographical fortunate as me.

Cugel wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024, 3:07pm

PH wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024, 1:55pm
Lastly, the OP has posted the question in the Technical section of the forum, there are technical advantages and disadvantages to all gearing choices, but very few of the answers have even touched on those.

Where are your lists of these advantages and disadvantages we dunces have failed to notice or discuss? I'm always eager to think about more stuff, as you know.

The advantages of 9spd were pretty well covered my Manc33 in the very first reply, they've been elaborated on in several posts, but I'm not going through the thread picking them out. I've pointed out, amongst other things, that the existence of 7spd mega range cassettes demonstrates a shortcoming that can be avoided by choosing 9. The advantages of 7spd, haven't really be touched upon, I think there's one mention of chainline and another about wheel dish but neither are really explained or followed up. Those advocating 7spd seem to be doing so on the basis of it being somehow simpler or that you don't need more. If this thread had stuck more closely to the technical aspect of the question, rather than people jumping on their soap boxes, it would be easier to go through it and create a list of the pros and cons.
The Sheldon link in the OP includes some technical detail, though it's mixed in with a lot of opinion. I suspect it was also written at a time when cost and availability favoured 7spd in a way that's no longer the case.

I've said this several times in the past on here but my favourite triple ever was 52/38/24. It was the Spa Cycles Zicral square taper cranks. That can't take an inner smaller than 24t. The front mech was an Ultegra R773-2 and I was using flat bar "road" shifters.

Now back on MTB again I'm on 48/36/24 and it's nearly as good, but that 52t outer downhill was great. This was at a time when I had 11-speed and 11-40t at the cassette. 33 gears Best gearing I ever used, but overkill perhaps hence going back to 9s. The 38t middle was also more suited to the road than the current 36t is but whatever.

I'm on an eBike now so the inner and middle barely get used. The only reason I have lower gears is if the motor decides to pack in while miles away. eBikes are suited to close ratio cassettes though because you're on the outer most of the time so you don't really want any big gaps at the cassette. I think I had a 11-21t as a 9-speed at one point on that. 11/12/13/14/15/16/17/19/21. Then I found I was changing gears all the time so, that's a bit overkill too.