Cycling UK Forum

Looks nice, although the price does seem a little high to me. The damage to the chainstay has been caused by chain suck. The chain doesn't disengage from the chainring on its way toward the rear derailleur and instead gets 'sucked' up and jammed between the ring and stay. A horrible feeling.

gregoryoftours wrote: ↑1 Sep 2024, 10:47am Looks nice, although the price does seem a little high to me.

I think part of the price is just the "retro Kona tax" cos they are quite desirable.

That one is the 2nd one up in the line from 1993.
Hahanna > Fire Mountain > Lava Dome > Cinder Cone

Needs a strip and clean, that chainstay damage could do with some tidying up and it'll probably need a whole new drivetrain but other than that, they're excellent candidates for restoration cos they were always great quality frames to start with. The Project 2 rigid forks were some of the very best. If you can find any of the very limited numbers of those they made in titanium, you could retire on what they're worth now!

rareposter wrote: ↑1 Sep 2024, 11:02am

gregoryoftours wrote: ↑1 Sep 2024, 10:47am Looks nice, although the price does seem a little high to me.

I think part of the price is just the "retro Kona tax" cos they are quite desirable.

That one is the 2nd one up in the line from 1993.
Hahanna > Fire Mountain > Lava Dome > Cinder Cone

Needs a strip and clean, that chainstay damage could do with some tidying up and it'll probably need a whole new drivetrain but other than that, they're excellent candidates for restoration cos they were always great quality frames to start with. The Project 2 rigid forks were some of the very best. If you can find any of the very limited numbers of those they made in titanium, you could retire on what they're worth now!

Yes I was thinking that in regards the Kona Tax. There are a couple of super crisp resto mods offered in the last few days. A Diamond Back 1x8 for only £100 and a beautiful GT 3x8 with 20t granny to boot (!) at £200.

I am indifferent about it being Kona or not, except to be happy knowing it was considered good in its time. Just those others had added more contemporary gear than I would have liked meaning the Kona has taken top spot for me. Also DB was probably too big for me at 21" I think, being 5' 10".

Hmm due to the evident chainsuck that looks like a good excuse to get another crankset while I am at it as I read that it is caused by worn chainrings.

gregoryoftours wrote: ↑1 Sep 2024, 10:47am Looks nice, although the price does seem a little high to me. The damage to the chainstay has been caused by chain suck. The chain doesn't disengage from the chainring on its way toward the rear derailleur and instead gets 'sucked' up and jammed between the ring and stay. A horrible feeling.

Ah that is kind of good to know rather that the other thought I had that it was due to a bad chainring setup that may have been causing them to grind on the frame! How does one avoid chainsuck, specifically on these old bikes which may not benefit from new gadgets? Guess I will give that a search...

Cowsham wrote: ↑1 Sep 2024, 9:36am I said 3x9 up thread but meant 2x9 46/30 and cassette
Shimano HG201, 9 speed, 11-36t -- plenty of gears and what's most impressive is how precise the shifting is for such a cheap Altus groupset. Robust too.

Some years ago I read an article reporting an interview with a Shimano bigwig (a rare thing, such an interview) in which he contrasted the less expensive with the more expensive groupsets. He named one of the differentiators as robustness vs lightweight, saying that the cheaper groupsets might be heavier and clunkier but that they were manufactured to take more abuse yet last because the people likely to buy them (or the bikes they tended to be fitted to) would not be too attentive to maintenance.

Having fixed a bike a five for others who did zero maintenance to their cheaper-Shimano-parts bikes, I'd say that's probably true. Their bikes came to me worn in every way, from collapsing rims (from brake wear) to seized headsets. The Shimano gear train was often very worn too but still functioning albeit probably with a low efficiency.

chain suck....yes, as said, worn chainrings.........or covered in mud!
google will find loads of stuff like this https://classic-repro.com/produit/anti- ... suck-pace/
...pretty easy to make a plate and bolt it on

gregoryoftours wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024, 8:02pm It's a very long thread that I haven't read through, so apologies if I'm straight repeating, but for me the sweet spot is 9x3. Price wise it's decent and you can get an 11-34 cassette with a reasonable spread of gears without too big gaps in between. A 7 speed cassette with that spacing would be probably 11-28, which is not enough for me if I am riding camping loaded up steep inclines. And a jump up to 34 on a 7 speed feels pretty nasty to me. I also prefer the shifter ergonomics on decent 9 speed groupsets and above.

Exactly this.

If you have a heavy touring load, then 3x9 is good value for money, gives a huge range and acceptable jumps between gears.

I don't think anything else, other than perhaps a Rohlhoff, comes close.

We run 46/36/24 and a 11-36 cassette, gear inches 18-113.

For really heavy loads, I think you need ~18 inches or you'll be pushing. The higher gears are nice to have, but still useful.

biker38109 wrote: ↑1 Sep 2024, 11:16am How does one avoid chainsuck, specifically on these old bikes which may not benefit from new gadgets?

Good condition, clean parts (chainrings, chain in particular).
Correct length BB (too short and the chainset will be closer to the frame meaning more chance of catching)
Not front shifting under load.

Chainsuck on modern bikes is pretty much non-existent; a combination of better frame design, 2x and 1x chainsets, stiffer BB / axle etc. Older bikes - it kind of varies, it's weird. You can have two nominally identical bikes and one will be plagued with it, the other will be fine!

If it happens, it's usually shifting from the middle ring to the inner ring at the front, the chain kind of "hooks" onto the underside of the middle ring and gets dragged up into the gap between the chainset and the frame, it can sometimes even seize in there if it's really bad. That's what then scratches the chainstay although they are made much thicker in that area anyway cos it's high stress so a few scratches is more cosmetic damage than anything.

roubaixtuesday wrote: ↑1 Sep 2024, 11:45am

gregoryoftours wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024, 8:02pm It's a very long thread that I haven't read through, so apologies if I'm straight repeating, but for me the sweet spot is 9x3. Price wise it's decent and you can get an 11-34 cassette with a reasonable spread of gears without too big gaps in between. A 7 speed cassette with that spacing would be probably 11-28, which is not enough for me if I am riding camping loaded up steep inclines. And a jump up to 34 on a 7 speed feels pretty nasty to me. I also prefer the shifter ergonomics on decent 9 speed groupsets and above.

Exactly this.

If you have a heavy touring load, then 3x9 is good value for money, gives a huge range and acceptable jumps between gears.

I don't think anything else, other than perhaps a Rohlhoff, comes close.

We run 46/36/24 and a 11-36 cassette, gear inches 18-113.

For really heavy loads, I think you need ~18 inches or you'll be pushing. The higher gears are nice to have, but still useful.

Looking at prices 8/9 speed seems the sweet spot and price slowly creeps up a few quid with each addition and I guess goes up more dramatically once reaching the latest 11/12/13.

I am thinking maybe get an 8 and take one off or 9 and take one off. The smallest cogs are redundant so doesn't matter about -1 there either way. Seems more about looking at the tooth steps of those offerings of the midrange to low gears I will actually be using, which is probably only 5 or 6 gears anyway when on 3x, which is effectively 2x due how little use the big ring gets for me.

rareposter wrote: ↑1 Sep 2024, 11:55am That's what then scratches the chainstay although they are made much thicker in that area anyway cos it's high stress so a few scratches is more cosmetic damage than anything.

Ok if that is all that is wrong with that Kona bike, just cosmetic stuff and a bit of wiping and general care then I am ready to go with it I think!

I think steel stays start life as an ordinary straight diameter tube; the axle end is swaged down to reduce the diameter which unhelpfully increases the wall thickness just where you don’t need it unless for a disc brake mount.

biker38109 wrote: ↑1 Sep 2024, 7:03am
I think all the talk of 'don't overthink' is disingenuous. They keep ignoring the fact I have a bike and am riding it regularly so my questions are informed by my riding.

Having done more research of bikes for sale on retrobike mostly, loads of great bikes both restromod and original I am settling down as to my wants.

So latest plan is to buy pretty good nick mtb of the era with original parts or minor upgrades with era faithful parts then make my own drivetrain changes with same era parts, which, from looking at the parts for sale, is easy and cost effective.

In which case I apologise and won't take up anymore of your time. Good luck with your plans.

biker38109 wrote: ↑1 Sep 2024, 12:03pm

rareposter wrote: ↑1 Sep 2024, 11:55am That's what then scratches the chainstay although they are made much thicker in that area anyway cos it's high stress so a few scratches is more cosmetic damage than anything.

Ok if that is all that is wrong with that Kona bike, just cosmetic stuff and a bit of wiping and general care then I am ready to go with it I think!

If that tickles your fancy then go for it and stop mithering! However, your mind already seems to be going down the "sympathetic improvement" road, which I can well understand. It can be a very enjoyable learning curve as long as you are prepared to make mistakes along the way and not regret wasting a bit of money here and there. I bought this on ebay two years ago with the intention of using it "as is" during the winter:- It's a low-range 1992 Giant GSR400 (steel frame, rigid forks 3x7). It cost me the princely sum of £35.00 and was owned by the seller's wife, who had hardly ridden since purchase from new. And there is one of your first priorities (apart from size) - How much use has it had? This bike needed nothing doing to it to ride and enjoy. However.....
I was used to cantilever brakes from years ago, but soon bought some new old stock polished silver Tektro v brakes (about 15 quid on ebay) for a marked improvement. There then followed a journey of enthusiastic "upgrading" using as near- period parts as possible (90's Acera front and rear derailleur, 42/34/24 chainset etc. etc.).
Fast forward to today and it has a Yosepower rear hub conversion, which necessitated reinstalling the original Sakae 48/38/28T chainset (with a Shimano chainguard adapted to fit) as I was "spinning out" on the 42T. Still 3x7 but with an 11T-28T DP freewheel, it gets me up any steep hills with ease using the motor assistance. It will also top out at well above 20mph if I'm so inclined - but rarely am:-
It is a heavy old thing, but out of the four bikes I own it is by far the most comfortable and enjoyable to ride. Since the above photo I've fitted Schwalbe Big Apple tyres and the improvement in comfort and rolling resistance is remarkable.
How much have I spent? Daren't add it up really, but I could probably have bought a "better" bike with 1x/2x whatever, aluminium frame, disc brakes etc., but that misses the point. I've really enjoyed tailoring this bike for my needs. Did I make some mistakes along the way? The cardboard box full of spare "bits" suggests that I did.
You will not get it all right from the beginning and your objectives might change along the way. I started with buying a cheap bike for the winter with no intention of changing anything, but ended up with an e-bike that has cost a fraction of what a new one would have cost. Most of all though I've really enjoyed the journey of making it suit me.

Cadence wrote: ↑1 Sep 2024, 1:32pm If that tickles your fancy then go for it and stop mithering! However, your mind already seems to be going down the "sympathetic improvement" road, which I can well understand.

How much have I spent? Daren't add it up really, but I could probably have bought a "better" bike with 1x/2x whatever, aluminium frame, disc brakes etc., but that misses the point. I've really enjoyed tailoring this bike for my needs. Did I make some mistakes along the way? The cardboard box full of spare "bits" suggests that I did.

You will not get it all right from the beginning and your objectives might change along the way. I started with buying a cheap bike for the winter with no intention of changing anything, but ended up with an e-bike that has cost a fraction of what a new one would have cost. Most of all though I've really enjoyed the journey of making it suit me.

Indeed someone who gets it!

I would suggest that converting to e-bike has veered slightly out of sympathetic improvement territory. Of course if that tickled your fancy then all good!

biker38109 wrote: ↑1 Sep 2024, 4:56pm


Indeed someone who gets it!

I would suggest that converting to e-bike has veered slightly out of sympathetic improvement territory. Of course if that tickled your fancy then all good!

Yes, and it rather illustrates my point. The e-bike conversion arose because I'd just converted another of my bikes (700c. wheeled aluminium framed hybrid 3x8) and found hills and longer distances so much more enjoyable with a bit of electric help along the way. At that time thoughts had turned to improving the Giant's gearing. I had already changed the chain set to 42-34-24T and was contemplating what to do about the 7 speed 14-28T freewheel, bearing mind that I had already fitted a new old stock 90's vintage Acera deraiileur which had a max capacity of 28T. Do I change the rear wheel to a freehub and fit an 8,9 or 10 speed cassette with a bigger sprocket (32T or more)? That would then need a new derailleur, cable and possibly shifter. The 42-34-24T chain set was a big improvement but as I was using a newly fitted 90's Acera front derailleur (optimised for 48T), the front gear changes were not very crisp - but liveable with.
Having fitted the e-bike conversion I found that the bike was a bit low-geared. It really only needs a single chain ring and I never use the small ring at all. Conversely, the large 42T was just too small as I was spinning out just when the motor ramped down at about 18mph. As I had the original 48-38-28T already it was a simple matter of putting it back on. Coupled with a new DP 11-28T freewheel I had the gear range I needed without changing either derailleur.
If you like tinkering and learning along the way (and I do, almost as much as actually riding ) then it's all a great deal of fun. If you don't then you are probably better off buying a new bike and use a bike shop for maintenance.