split topic (from lenient sentencing thread)

[Corpulent_Porpoise]

[Moderator note - split off from the thread 'A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....' (viewtopic.php?t=50829). For further explanation see viewtopic.php?t=162604]

Deleted by C_P

[ratherbeintobago]

I think the problem with that take boils down to:

• If someone drives like a dick, other road users will get hurt.
  If someone cycles like a dick, the chances are they will hurt themselves.

The levels of potential harm are just not equal, lately because of basic physics.

[Corpulent_Porpoise]

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[Cugel]

I think the problem with that take boils down to:

• If someone drives like a dick, other road users will get hurt.
  If someone cycles like a dick, the chances are they will hurt themselves.

The levels of potential harm are just not equal, lately because of basic physics.

That doesn't follow at all. A more realistic analogy would be:
If someone drives like a dick, other road users may get hurt.
If someone cycles like a dick, other road users may get hurt and the cyclist is likely to hurt themselves as well.

There are far more car drivers of course, but as a percentage I'd reckon that there are just as many bad cyclists as there are drivers. Yes, the car driver is likely to cause more harm but that shouldn't be the outcome used to determine the act's recklessness. The other difference would be that very few cyclists are caught, partly because we carry no reg plate (and I'd oppose any move to move in that direction).

Sadly, I have to agree - many cyclists ride their bikes in the same way that they drive their cars - badly, with little or no consideration of the dangers and damages they can so easily cause.

Whilst its true that poor cycling is less likely to harm others .... it still can. One form of harm is the psychological trauma being a "cycling victim" can cause some drivers. (Yes, I know others couldn't care less about their damages to others). If the cycling victim is in fact the agent causing an "accident" in which a car badly damages them, it hardly seems fair on the driver to have to feel guilt, remorse and all of the other mental stuff that can often follow, no matter who was at fault.

It would be all lovely and nice, wouldn't it, if riding a bike inculcated only the best feelings and behaviours in the riders. Alas, it isn't so and never has been. Even in the early days "scorchers" were the bane of pedestrians, horse riders and anyone else who got in the way of their flung-along ordinaries. These days we have the TdeF wannabees, the strava-strivers and several other varieties of scorchers, along with the common-or-garden variety yobs who haven't yet stolen someone else's motor bike or scooter so have to make do with flinging a bike at folk.

[Corpulent_Porpoise]

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[deeferdonk]

I think this thread should also illustrate some of the spectacularly stupid things that some cyclists do...

Repectfully strongly disagree - the title of this thread is "A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....". Thats a pretty well defined subject. How about starting your own thread called "spectacularly stupid things that some cyclists do" to discuss this completely separate subject?

[ratherbeintobago]

Repectfully strongly disagree - the title of this thread is "A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....". Thats a pretty well defined subject. How about starting your own thread called "spectacularly stupid things that some cyclists do" to discuss this completely separate subject?

This. The fact remains that there are dickheads in all walks of life, but there are 5 people a day killed by drivers and many more seriously injured vs less than that by cyclists in a year, so the harms are in no way comparable, and the court system often seems to treat appallingly and dangerously negligent driving leniently.

[Corpulent_Porpoise]

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[deeferdonk]

I think this thread should also illustrate some of the spectacularly stupid things that some cyclists do...

Repectfully strongly disagree - the title of this thread is "A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....". Thats a pretty well defined subject. How about starting your own thread called "spectacularly stupid things that some cyclists do" to discuss this completely separate subject?

Simple, because I believe there should be a balance. Both parties do some stupid things and I think all threads like this do is fuel anti-cycling hatred. I don't like the word 'hate' it's a very strong emotion, but it is one seemingly felt by both motorists and cyclists against one another. The main reason I don't think this thread helps us is because it comes across as rather pious. I'm not arguing against some of the motoring offences, or defending the drivers, I just think there should be a balance for our own sakes as much as anything else.

Again respectfully - you are not being balanced at all. This thread is "A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle". There's lots of posts and links to news stories where drivers of vehicles have killed or maimed people and got away scot free, or with arguably minimal punishments.

You posted an anecdote of 2 cyclists you saw going through a red light.

I could understand if you posted in this thread an incident where a cyclist caused a death and got a lenient sentence - that would be balanced - and almost on topic. Or posted disagreeing that a sentence was lenient for x,y, or z reasons.

There's nothing to stop you starting a thread or multiple threads listing all the stupid things you've seen cyclists, pedestrians, hang-gliders doing for balance.

I can't help but think the cycling world needs to get its own house in order, or at least strike a balanced stance, before launching off in a generally anti-car thread.

Ok lads - none of you condemn that lenient sentencing for that drugged driver who killed those kids - i saw a scally doing a wheelie down the high street, so we're all just as bad as each other

[Corpulent_Porpoise]

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[slowster]

You misunderstand me. I agree 100% that there are instances where drivers receive overly-lenient sentences and I'd be happy to illustrate cases where that has happened. Cyclists also cause accidents but these are rarely reported (at least in relation to the frequency) anywhere because it's unusual for the cyclist to be apprehended. Ergo there can be no prosecution followed by a lenient sentence.

This thread is a place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle drivers when causing the deaths of other road users. If, to provide balance, you wish to start a thread about lenient sentencing of cyclists who cause the deaths of others, feel free to do so. You can include in the thread the instances where there was no prosecution because the cyclist was not apprehended.

[deeferdonk]

You misunderstand me. I agree 100% that there are instances where drivers receive overly-lenient sentences and I'd be happy to illustrate cases where that has happened.

Well this is the thread for doing specifically that and yet you are derailing it with "whataboutery" and misplaced "balance"

No, the example I gave wasn't anecdotal, it happened.

I do believe you. An anecdote is a personal story about something that happened to you, or was witnessed by you. So your story is anecdotal.

I don't give a damn about hang-gliders, they're not relevant. Hang-glider users and car drivers aren't at loggerheads - cyclist and car drivers are and that's why I believe a balance is important.

hang gliders are as relevant to this thread as the subjects you have brought up. Hyperbole is a figure of speech that uses obvious and extreme exaggeration to make a point.

I don't want to start a thread moaning about cyclists; I am one! I'm equally opposed to the threads on car forums where some really vicious things are said against cyclists. I very often wade in to those as well and try to strike a balance. Don't you see my point? Unless we all have a balanced view then it's hard to make positive progress. That's all I'm saying.

And yet you want to moan about other cyclists and us putting our house in order in a thread where its not relevant and isn't providing balance at all. You can moan about other cyclists - its fine - i'm just disagreeing that this is the right place to do it.

The analogy in your final paragraph is just childish and nonsensical. Doing a wheelie is not the same as jumping a red and cycling straight across a busy junction causing traffic to brake sharply to avoid an accident.

Again - me being a bit hyperbolic.

Apologies but you did get my goat a bit and I have now contributed to derailing this otherwise worthy thread with my condescending mansplaining!
No ill will intended, and wishing you safe cycling.

[Corpulent_Porpoise]

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[slowster]

That's where my call for some balance comes from; I believe we need to be seen to calling-out our own lest someone in Westminster does it for us instead. That is all I'm hoping to generate.

How does posting an anecdote about two people on bikes going through a red light provide balance in a thread listing dozens of instances of drivers who have killed and been given a lenient sentence?

[Corpulent_Porpoise]

Deleted by C_P