Road pricing - pay per mile

oaklec
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by oaklec »

I see a charge of 1p per mile for cars and vans in the press today.
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Carlton green wrote: 24 Oct 2024, 11:11am
Jdsk wrote: 24 Oct 2024, 10:25am
Bmblbzzz wrote: 24 Oct 2024, 9:18am
Not so. My son was one of many who at his primary school who walked to school unaccompanied from the age of maybe 9. About ten years ago.
Quite right. I have an 11 yr old grandchild who goes to school on a public bus. And walked home unaccompanied from a previous school.

Jonathan
In my community, and I assume many others too, only the year six (age 10 - 11) primary school children are allowed (by the school) to travel by themselves. Other ages are not allowed to leave the classroom without an adult collecting them. Perhaps I should have made it clear that from about aged six I walked myself to infants school - and was glad to have that independence. It was once common for young children to play outside by themselves and to find their way about locally, I certainly did.
Yes, we had to confirm to the school that he was allowed to walk home on his own. (Of course he never walked home on his own, just without an adult, and equally obviously it took three or four times as long as walking to school in the morning.) Just as we would have had to if he was to be picked up by a non-parent (eg a grandparent).
Jdsk
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by Jdsk »

oaklec wrote: 24 Oct 2024, 1:54pm I see a charge of 1p per mile for cars and vans in the press today.
This probably follows suggestions from the Tony Blair Institute for Global Change:
https://institute.global/insights/econo ... s-for-2025

Jonathan
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pjclinch
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by pjclinch »

Jdsk wrote: 24 Oct 2024, 1:59pm
oaklec wrote: 24 Oct 2024, 1:54pm I see a charge of 1p per mile for cars and vans in the press today.
This probably follows suggestions from the Tony Blair Institute for Global Change:
https://institute.global/insights/econo ... s-for-2025
That was reported in the Graun yesterday, https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -thinktank.

While I can see advantages in a simple system, at least as a start point, it seems a shame that something more elaborate that can help manage road use according to congestion levels isn't envisaged.

In any case, I see at the bottom the HM Gov. have their blinkers firmly in place:
A government spokesperson said: “We have no plans to introduce road pricing. We are committed to supporting our automotive sector as we transition to electric vehicles in order to meet our legally binding climate targets.”
(or in other words, "don't panic, nothing much will change, here are some platitudes to wash that down").

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Jdsk
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by Jdsk »

pjclinch wrote: 24 Oct 2024, 3:03pm
Jdsk wrote: 24 Oct 2024, 1:59pm
oaklec wrote: 24 Oct 2024, 1:54pm I see a charge of 1p per mile for cars and vans in the press today.
This probably follows suggestions from the Tony Blair Institute for Global Change:
https://institute.global/insights/econo ... s-for-2025
That was reported in the Graun yesterday, https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -thinktank.

While I can see advantages in a simple system, at least as a start point, it seems a shame that something more elaborate that can help manage road use according to congestion levels isn't envisaged.
...
It is envisaged and explicitly discussed in the TBIGC report.

Jonathan
Carlton green
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by Carlton green »

Jdsk wrote: 24 Oct 2024, 3:30pm
pjclinch wrote: 24 Oct 2024, 3:03pm
Jdsk wrote: 24 Oct 2024, 1:59pm
This probably follows suggestions from the Tony Blair Institute for Global Change:
https://institute.global/insights/econo ... s-for-2025
That was reported in the Graun yesterday, https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -thinktank.

While I can see advantages in a simple system, at least as a start point, it seems a shame that something more elaborate that can help manage road use according to congestion levels isn't envisaged.
...
It is envisaged and explicitly discussed in the TBIGC report.

Jonathan
Not that easy to find (assuming that I have) and rather light on detail. Whilst arguably a step forward I’d say that the plans lack equity as: large cars (which take more road space and cause more damage) are charged the same as small ones, and a congested mile of city travel costs the same as a clear mile of rural travel. Perhaps some of that inequality will be dealt with later.
We recommend implementing a flat per-mile charge in the first instance – verified and paid during mileage checks at MOTs – to establish a system that is easy to understand and can be implemented quickly. But over time, as road-pricing charges rise to replace lost fuel-duty revenue, account for inflation and offset some of the social costs of congestion, the government should look to deploy technology to make it more targeted. This could include using telematics to lower the per-mile cost during off-peak driving times.
Rather than raising fuel duty in the spring, the government should use this opportunity to introduce a simple form of road pricing. By charging 1p per mile for all cars and vans, and 2.5p to 4p per mile for heavy-goods vehicles, the chancellor would raise the same revenue as the planned fuel-duty hike and the average motorist would be no worse off. At the same time, it would be a crucial first step on the road to reforming the UK’s system of motoring taxation for the net-zero era.
As electric vehicles become more prevalent on the UK’s roads, the government stands to lose about 1 per cent of GDP in fuel-duty revenue. Without a new form of motoring taxation that applies to electric-vehicle drivers, they will be incentivised to drive more and add to congestion. Under some government projections, the cost of congestion could more than double by 2050.
I’m disappointed that it’s not going to happen but understand that the Government might not want to risk adoption of electric vehicles - it could try aggressively tapering off benefit in kind relief and giving assistance (like VAT removal) to private buyers of new and second hand small BEV’s at the bottom end of the market.
A government spokesperson said: “We have no plans to introduce road pricing. We are committed to supporting our automotive sector as we transition to electric vehicles in order to meet our legally binding climate targets.”
Last edited by Carlton green on 25 Oct 2024, 9:39am, edited 1 time in total.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Jdsk
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by Jdsk »

Carlton green wrote: 25 Oct 2024, 9:20am
Jdsk wrote: 24 Oct 2024, 3:30pm
pjclinch wrote: 24 Oct 2024, 3:03pm That was reported in the Graun yesterday, https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -thinktank.

While I can see advantages in a simple system, at least as a start point, it seems a shame that something more elaborate that can help manage road use according to congestion levels isn't envisaged.
...
It is envisaged and explicitly discussed in the TBIGC report.
Not that easy to find (assuming that I have) and rather light on detail.
...
It's hard to think how it could be easier to find: open the document and search for "congestion". I just tried it in Chrome: took a couple of seconds to open and less than a second to return the hits.

And it cites a previous report from 2021 "Avoiding Gridlock Britain":
https://institute.global/insights/clima ... ck-britain

Jonathan
Carlton green
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by Carlton green »

It was the particular section of text on variable road pricing that took a bit of a (manual) search. The article is easy to find.

IIRC you’re involve in IT, and hence might have better skills than some of the rest of us :) .
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Jdsk
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by Jdsk »

Carlton green wrote: 25 Oct 2024, 9:41am ...
The article is easy to find.
...
I agree. One way to find it is to click on the posted link.

That method also works for the article which is specifically about congestion. And for the IFS paper.

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by Jdsk »

The Resolution Foundation: "Getting the green light. The path to a fair transition for the transport sector":
https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/ap ... -light.pdf

It's very good on decarbonisation and public sector transport and the threats to fairness.

Jonathan

PS: One way of accessing this report is to click on the link.
axel_knutt
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by axel_knutt »

oaklec wrote: 24 Oct 2024, 1:54pm I see a charge of 1p per mile for cars and vans in the press today.
£120 a year, it's not much, is it. I doubt that will stop someone driving a mile on the school run.
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Jdsk
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by Jdsk »

axel_knutt wrote: 25 Oct 2024, 12:50pm
oaklec wrote: 24 Oct 2024, 1:54pm I see a charge of 1p per mile for cars and vans in the press today.
£120 a year, it's not much, is it. I doubt that will stop someone driving a mile on the school run.
The proposal is directly related to the fuel duty change due in 2025. And the report makes it clear that it would be a first step. (It's in Chapter 4.)

Jonathan
Carlton green
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by Carlton green »

axel_knutt wrote: 25 Oct 2024, 12:50pm
oaklec wrote: 24 Oct 2024, 1:54pm I see a charge of 1p per mile for cars and vans in the press today.
£120 a year, it's not much, is it. I doubt that will stop someone driving a mile on the school run.
You’re likely right, and some - but obviously not all - people drive because it’s necessary for them to do so. Now what about the externalities of parents having to either drive or walk considerable distances because the state has chosen to centralise education into large / massive schools rather than provide smaller schools within say ten minutes walk of where people live?

1p per mile does seem small to me too, no doubt the charge will be small to start and end up much larger. As in my comment above a flat rate for cars is also wrong too, some account should be taken of car size.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Stevek76
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by Stevek76 »

On the topic of economics & appraisal. Worth noting that the 'official' UK cost of carbon used in economic appraisals has increased a fair bit since that 2015 ifs study. Let alone the various dissenting arguments that it is still too low.

The considered impacts of air and noise pollution are also better understood and higher.
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Jdsk
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Re: Road pricing - pay per mile

Post by Jdsk »

Stevek76 wrote: 25 Oct 2024, 1:58pm On the topic of economics & appraisal. Worth noting that the 'official' UK cost of carbon used in economic appraisals has increased a fair bit since that 2015 ifs study. Let alone the various dissenting arguments that it is still too low.

The considered impacts of air and noise pollution are also better understood and higher.
Yes, it definitely needs updating.

I'd add what we now know about the migration to BEVs.

But are we talking about the same report? "A road map for motoring taxation" was published in 2019.
https://ifs.org.uk/books/road-map-motoring-taxation

Jonathan
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