Helmets (from insurance discussions)

[Blondie]

For those not wearing a helmet, I'd suggest they ask the question to an emergency doctor nearby if they consider helmets are part of "any appropriate safety equipment" in their opinion.

An emergency room doctor will see far far more head injuries from activities not involving a bike such as car crashes, slips, trips etc. Would they suggest helmets as appropriate safety equipment for driving or walking, getting in or out of a bath or shower. If not, why not?

[irc]

For those not wearing a helmet, I'd suggest they ask the question to an emergency doctor nearby if they consider helmets are part of "any appropriate safety equipment" in their opinion.

An emergency room doctor will see far far more head injuries from activities not involving a bike such as car crashes, slips, trips etc. Would they suggest helmets as appropriate safety equipment for driving or walking, getting in or out of a bath or shower. If not, why not?

Good question. Because they treat injuries and have no training or qualifications in road safety, accident prevention, or statistics?

[Navrig]

I totally get Simon's "attitude" and agree with it.

People forget that "risk" is a combination of the chance of something happening and the resulting impact from it happening.

We constantly make risk assessments throughout our day and generally get it right for us - otherwise we would all have been squashed by a bus before the age of 12.

[irc]

This was the reply I got from Sportscoverdirect:

"Thank you for your enquiry.

We do not state that it is mandatory for you to wear a helmet underneath our policy wording.

We do, however, state the following on page 5:

You are required to take all practicable steps to protect yourself and Your Property, and to act at all times as if You are not insured.

If this means wearing a helmet to reduce the chances of a head injury when cycling, then please ensure that you do so. "

If this means wearing a helmet when walking to reduce the risk of injury?

Seriously? I have seen hillwalkers wearing bike helmets to ride a track to the start of a mountain walk where despite a perhaps similar risk of head injury they go without.

I was in the vicinity of a hillwalking fall where a head injury was the cause of death. Talking when loaded into the helicopter and dead within an hour. Possibly might have been saved by a helmet.
My risk assessment that day was that it was too windy to go on the tops. It was the only time I have ever been literally blown off my feet and dropped a few feet away when trying to walk into a corrie a thousand feet lower than the summits. I had to crawl for a hundred yards or so to get away from a point where the winds were being focussed by the terrain. I was wearing a climbing helmet at the time on what was in windless conditions and easy walk.

[Blondie]

For those not wearing a helmet, I'd suggest they ask the question to an emergency doctor nearby if they consider helmets are part of "any appropriate safety equipment" in their opinion.

An emergency room doctor will see far far more head injuries from activities not involving a bike such as car crashes, slips, trips etc. Would they suggest helmets as appropriate safety equipment for driving or walking, getting in or out of a bath or shower. If not, why not?

Good question. Because they treat injuries and have no training or qualifications in road safety, accident prevention, or statistics?

Exactly, they are not experts when it comes to the efficacy of helmets.

[Jdsk]

An emergency room doctor will see far far more head injuries from activities not involving a bike such as car crashes, slips, trips etc. Would they suggest helmets as appropriate safety equipment for driving or walking, getting in or out of a bath or shower. If not, why not?

Good question. Because they treat injuries and have no training or qualifications in road safety, accident prevention, or statistics?

Exactly, they are not experts when it comes to the efficacy of helmets.

I recommend checking those assertions about emergency room doctors with the requirements of the generic professional capabilities framework and of the postgraduate curriculum for emergency medicine.

Jonathan

[Blondie]

Good question. Because they treat injuries and have no training or qualifications in road safety, accident prevention, or statistics?

Exactly, they are not experts when it comes to the efficacy of helmets.

I recommend checking those assertions about emergency room doctors with the requirements of the generic professional capabilities framework and of the postgraduate curriculum for emergency medicine.

Jonathan

I have it open right now. Which section are you referring to, save me reading the whole thing?

[Jdsk]

Exactly, they are not experts when it comes to the efficacy of helmets.

I recommend checking those assertions about emergency room doctors with the requirements of the generic professional capabilities framework and of the postgraduate curriculum for emergency medicine.

I have it open right now. Which section are you referring to, save me reading the whole thing?

Those are two separate documents.

And it probably is worth reading both of them in full to check all of those assertions.

Jonathan

[Blondie]

Good question. Because they treat injuries and have no training or qualifications in road safety, accident prevention, or statistics?

Exactly, they are not experts when it comes to the efficacy of helmets.

I recommend checking those assertions about emergency room doctors with the requirements of the generic professional capabilities framework and of the postgraduate curriculum for emergency medicine.

Jonathan

I had a large language AI summarise the curriculum of this framework and no mention of helmets was found. Which is reasonable as they are training in medical care not to become experts in statistics, nor materials science, nor accident investigation, nor engineering etc. I’d suggest you are mistaken in your belief following this curriculum will make anyone an expert in helmets. My conversations with doctors in A&E suggests the same.

[Jdsk]

...
I’d suggest you are mistaken in your belief following this curriculum will make anyone an expert in helmets.
...

I don't have such a belief, and never stated that I had. Please read what I wrote.

Jonathan

[mattheus]

I recommend checking those assertions about emergency room doctors with the requirements of the generic professional capabilities framework and of the postgraduate curriculum for emergency medicine.

I have it open right now. Which section are you referring to, save me reading the whole thing?

Those are two separate documents.

And it probably is worth reading both of them in full to check all of those assertions.

Jonathan

Why don't you simply specify one of the relevant sections? ("in full" you say? Just how much of the framework concerns statistics?? )

Or does it suit you better to continue this cryptic wild goose chase for evidence supporting your claim?

[Jdsk]

I have it open right now. Which section are you referring to, save me reading the whole thing?

Those are two separate documents.

And it probably is worth reading both of them in full to check all of those assertions.

Why don't you simply specify one of the relevant sections? ("in full" you say? Just how much of the framework concerns statistics?? )
...

Anyone who has read the documents will already have found the many references to critical appraisal, evidence-based approaches, prevention, health promotion, epidemiology, data management and research.

These are precisely the skills that are needed to understand the available evidence on the several different questions related to cycle helmets. And that applies whether you're medically qualified or not.

Jonathan

[mattheus]

p.s. https://www.grammarly.com/blog/rhetoric ... y-fallacy/

[drossall]

I'm sorry this has got so adversarial. Jdsk is clearly better qualified than any of us to comment on the knowledge of medical specialists, so I was hoping to learn something. But the key point for me has been that an appraisal of the role of a helmet in a particular incident surely involves an understanding of materials science, including the properties of helmets and how they do and do not absorb energy, and otherwise behave, in incidents? Whilst Jdsk mentions some qualifications, no-one expects medical professionals to know about these things.

I've seen elsewhere, only in the last few days, a thread where the recommendations of consultants to wear helmets were reported. By contrast, another contributor had had a consultant state that helmets were not generally that helpful, and he didn't wear one in traffic. One way to interpret that is that they had comparable medical qualifications, but different appreciations of the mechanics involved in crashes.

On epidemiology, I'm always thrown back to the comments of Goldacre and Spiegelhalter. Not being medically trained, I tend to give these significant weight. Am I wrong to do so?

[Jdsk]

Thankyou for those comments.

As usual the discussion will only make progress if the many different questions are made explicit.

I certainly wouldn't expect most doctors to know about the materials science. But I don't think that that affects most of the questions that I consider to be important.

Jonathan