Cycling UK Forum

As an observation I was walking my dog this evening in my local park, there was no direct lighting and I wasn’t using a torch - so just using ‘night vision’. Coming towards me was a light/white coloured object which turned out to be part of a plastic carrier bag, the owner wasn’t visible and (when nearer) I eventually found that he was wearing all dark coloured clothing. It’s a straw poll result but, for me at least, it was a nice demonstration of the effect (potentially helpful visibility) of having a light/white item with you in the dark.

Would you have seen them if they had a white light on their front and a red light on their back? Would you have seen them in daylight?

No! For cycling, especially in low light or where being visible in driving mirrors is important, I prefer to be highly visible. I do not buy black cycling tops.

As a pedestrian on unlit roads without footways, I do not go out of my way to hide, but feel no obligation to go out of my way to be visible. Faster moving travelers have a duty to be looking for us, and I am reluctant to do anything implying that it is my responsibility to make myself obvious, not theirs to keep a proper lookout.

jgurney wrote: ↑29 Nov 2024, 8:08pm... I am reluctant to do anything implying that it is my responsibility to make myself obvious, not theirs to keep a proper lookout.

I think this is an important point. I don't wear black - I've got one jersey that I never wear as a top layer for that reason. But, way back, when rear lights were introduced for visibility, the CTC (as it was then) had reservations. It's not about arguing against lights, hi-vis, bright colours, and so on - these are obviously sensible. But cyclists and pedestrians do these things for extra visibility. They are not introduced to raise the bar, so that there is an ever-increasing succession of extra things required before the law will protect vulnerable road users.

To be provocative, I would suggest that they are only providing extra visibility if the penalties for hitting people without them remain as they were, but hitting those who do have them results in a doubling. Hit a Christmas tree, and lose your licence for ten years on the spot.

Otherwise, the usual thing applies; any safety benefit will be consumed by road users in part as a performance benefit. Provide seat belts, and we go faster because we feel safer. Light cyclists up like Christmas trees, and we (when driving) go faster because we think we're more likely to spot them.

Here’s the photo referred to earlier. You can still see the cyclist in black, though some of the other colours perhaps stand out more. Black doesn’t make you invisible.

Blondie wrote: ↑29 Nov 2024, 7:45pm Would you have seen them if they had a white light on their front and a red light on their back? Would you have seen them in daylight?

You would be correct in suggesting that I would have seen them in daylight and that I would have seen them had they been lighted, but that misses the observation that I was trying to make (ie. the (potentially helpful visibility) effect of having a light/white item with you in the dark.)

As a motorist I know that there’s a lot of information continually coming towards me and fighting for my attention, and as a cyclist and pedestrian I understand that it’s sensible to give other shared space users a reasonable chance to see me. To an extent I think that dark clothing acts as a camouflage and that whilst I’d mostly prefer to not disturb others with my presence there is a time - without going OTT - to ensure that you’re not unintentionally blending with the background, a time to help other shared space users to avoid injuring you.

peetee wrote: ↑27 Nov 2024, 11:46am I'm curious to know whether the bike clothing market is producing clothing we want to wear or if cyclist are being lead to clothing that the manufacturers want us to be seen in.
On the subject of colour, it seems to me that there are a rather large proportion of black cycling tops. Sone are made by manufacturers who seem to like to project this as the default option, a sort of 'corporate image'. Others not so - and maybe they are following a supply-derived trend in order to get a share of the market they deem is popular.
How many of us would be happy to wear such tops as opposed to something more visible? Have we worn both and felt safer or otherwise? Do you think it makes a difference?

For myself, I prefer something brighter. Yellow or orange are easy to find in my cycle clothing cupboard. Others can wear what they like.

TrevA wrote: ↑29 Nov 2024, 10:45pm IMG_0021.jpegHere’s the photo referred to earlier. You can still see the cyclist in black, though some of the other colours perhaps stand out more. Black doesn’t make you invisible.

Do you think the visibility of each would be different if the riders position put them in front of or alongside the dark, shaded area in the centre of the path?

TrevA wrote: ↑29 Nov 2024, 10:45pm IMG_0021.jpegHere’s the photo referred to earlier. You can still see the cyclist in black, though some of the other colours perhaps stand out more. Black doesn’t make you invisible.

It's contrast that makes you stand out, not absolute brightness. On that score, the worst of the lot is grey. A couple of years ago I had to brake hard in the car so as not to frighten a bloke on a bike who was clad in a couple of shades of grey and was hard to see against the bushes behind him.

My home is approached via an unlit lane.
When driving at night I sometimes encounter cyclists in dark clothing with no lights - I can get very close before they become visible.
Those in reflective clothing can be seen from a long way off even without lights.
Pedal reflectors are excellent.

It's a long time since the CTC lost it's fight against compulsory rear lights arguing that it was the responsibility of the overtaker to ensure safety.

Personally I will always endeavour to be as visible as possible.

No.

Generally I don't do black or grey in any aspect of life (other than home decoration which is my wife's domain. Why is grey so popular.....). However it's not so much a safety thing as just preferring colours.

That said I do, distinctly, remember on dingy, winter Saturday morning when I was out with a group and we were planning on turning off a busyish (this is rural Scotland) B road to very quiet unclassified road. Several of the group were in black, the sun was low and there are hedges/trees (see photo). As we signalled and pulled out to turn (I was, as usual at the back) they disappeared in the shadows of the roadside hedges. They literally turned invisible.

Since then I don't road ride without front and rear lights and some sort of reflective strips on my clothing/helmet.

ANTONISH wrote: ↑30 Nov 2024, 10:51am My home is approached via an unlit lane.
When driving at night I sometimes encounter cyclists in dark clothing with no lights - I can get very close before they become visible.
Those in reflective clothing can be seen from a long way off even without lights.
Pedal reflectors are excellent.

It's a long time since the CTC lost it's fight against compulsory rear lights arguing that it was the responsibility of the overtaker to ensure safety.

Personally I will always endeavour to be as visible as possible.

You will only pick up reflectives if your car headlights are being reflected back at you. In which case you should be able to pick out non reflectives as well if paying attention.

Blondie wrote: ↑30 Nov 2024, 2:01pm

ANTONISH wrote: ↑30 Nov 2024, 10:51am My home is approached via an unlit lane.
When driving at night I sometimes encounter cyclists in dark clothing with no lights - I can get very close before they become visible.
Those in reflective clothing can be seen from a long way off even without lights.
Pedal reflectors are excellent.

It's a long time since the CTC lost it's fight against compulsory rear lights arguing that it was the responsibility of the overtaker to ensure safety.

Personally I will always endeavour to be as visible as possible.

You will only pick up reflectives if your car headlights are being reflected back at you. In which case you should be able to pick out non reflectives as well if paying attention.

I can see both but reflectives are visible at a longer distance.

ANTONISH wrote: ↑30 Nov 2024, 10:51amIt's a long time since the CTC lost it's fight against compulsory rear lights arguing that it was the responsibility of the overtaker to ensure safety.

I don't believe that that's what they did argue, although I wasn't around at the time! Rather, they were concerned that, if lights were to become compulsory, the effect would be less to protect cyclists than to protect motorists, by raising the bar for what was considered a visible cyclist. In effect, therefore, it would be victim-blaming legislation.

There is some justification for this view, in that we've successively added brighter lights, reflective clothing, flashing lights, and so on, to the list.

Common sense says be visible. But these things are done for extra visibility. In principle, we're supposed to proceed if we can see the way to be clear, rather than to stop when we can see that it is not.

ANTONISH wrote: ↑30 Nov 2024, 5:44pm

Blondie wrote: ↑30 Nov 2024, 2:01pm

ANTONISH wrote: ↑30 Nov 2024, 10:51am My home is approached via an unlit lane.
When driving at night I sometimes encounter cyclists in dark clothing with no lights - I can get very close before they become visible.
Those in reflective clothing can be seen from a long way off even without lights.
Pedal reflectors are excellent.

It's a long time since the CTC lost it's fight against compulsory rear lights arguing that it was the responsibility of the overtaker to ensure safety.

Personally I will always endeavour to be as visible as possible.

You will only pick up reflectives if your car headlights are being reflected back at you. In which case you should be able to pick out non reflectives as well if paying attention.

I can see both but reflectives are visible at a longer distance.

I have a small, yellow backpack with what I thought was broad reflective stripes on.
It took my son driving home from work one night to tell me that bag was not reflective and that it was obscuring the reflective strips on my jacket.

I disputed what he said till I took it outside and tested it in the dark -- he was right. The yellow or silver were just that yellow and silver -- nothing reflective about it.

He saw my lights OK though. I have a small one with button cell that came with my helmet in case my main rear light goes out or falls off. ( I've seen red flashing cycle lamps laying in the road a couple of times now )