A.i in public services

[PDQ Mobile]

In all fairness the funding of care is another issue.
I am no expert, I just know about fixing stuff.

If money hadn't been wantonly wasted, a road sweeper could surely clean all rural roads once a year.
We have not seen one here for more than a decade.

Apologies for having to explain it to you in very simple terms, but it might be the only way I can ask you to form this connection.....

If Local Authorities have to spend more on providing social care, that means that budgets such as street cleaning, verge cutting and road maintenance are reduced....

When I was working for the Council, in real terms spending on road maintenance was reduced year after year after year, in order to provide the minimum legal care for adults and children's services.

It's not a question of money being wasted, it's simply the fact that central government has decided that the council tax payer should pay for local care regardless of the income level for that county.

And apologies to you for explaining in simple terms.

But even if a budget is reduced then if you wantonly waste money on unnecessary stuff that leaves less money for the other remnants (which remain important).

In the context of road maintenance I put AI into the category of unnecessary.
It may make you bread and butter but it doesn't help the rest of us.

[[XAP]Bob]

And apologies to you for explaining in simple terms.

But even if a budget is reduced then if you wantonly waste money on unnecessary stuff that leaves less money for the other remnants (which remain important).

In the context of road maintenance I put AI into the category of unnecessary.
It may make you bread and butter but it doesn't help the rest of us.

Why?

Because you can't see how it might be used?

[Nearholmer]

I think it might be interesting if PDQ were to put him or herself in the position of a local authority, one with all sorts of roads from the rural to the urban in its area (I think trunk roads fall to the Highways Authority), and described in some detail how, without the use of any IT at all (AI being mostly a red-herring term here) they would plan, schedule, and execute road maintenance. I’ll allow telephones, but not mobile telephones, cos they can’t work without loads of IT.

Apart from doing a sort of 1973 re-enactment, involving a huge amount of paperwork, and a large number of staff paid very low wages (although see below regarding houses), I can’t see how it would be done. I remember quite well how it was done, because the council “road yard” was less than half a mile from our house, and there was a run of rather nice council cottages with huge gardens a quarter of a mile the other way, which had been built in the 1930s for “the road menders”, several of which were still occupied them, Mister Adams, the ganger, got the house on the end with a doubly huge garden, and members of his gang the others. At the yard there was a long run of little offices, one for a manager, and multiple for clerks who processed wages, materials orders, and, and, and. The whole thing was a labour and paper intensive operation, fuelled by vast amounts of tea, and generated loads of moaning about the cost of the rates in the letters pages of the local paper!

[cycle tramp]

But even if a budget is reduced then if you wantonly waste money on unnecessary stuff that leaves less money for the other remnants (which remain important).

In the context of road maintenance I put AI into the category of unnecessary.
It may make you bread and butter but it doesn't help the rest of us.

If by 'wanton' you mean the cost of carrying out highways inspections by highways officers, versus carrying out inspections by A.i were accurately calculated showing time and money saving costs, with clear outcomes demonstrating that using A.i would save money and time, that these figures were then scrutinised and that there was a vote whether to implement the new technology.. then yes.. the process was ''wanton'.

[PDQ Mobile]

Apart from doing a sort of 1973 re-enactment, involving a huge amount of paperwork, and a large number of staff paid very low wages (although see below regarding houses), I can’t see how it would be done. I remember quite well how it was done, because the council “road yard” was less than half a mile from our house, and there was a run of rather nice council cottages with huge gardens a quarter of a mile the other way, which had been built in the 1930s for “the road menders”, several of which were still occupied them, Mister Adams, the ganger, got the house on the end with a doubly huge garden, and members of his gang the others. At the yard there was a long run of little offices, one for a manager, and multiple for clerks who processed wages, materials orders, and, and, and. The whole thing was a labour and paper intensive operation, fuelled by vast amounts of tea, and generated loads of moaning about the cost of the rates in the letters pages of the local paper!

But maybe not so far fetched in terms of efficiency?
After all I remember the roads were in far better order.

It worked because these guys knew what they were doing.
(My local guys now don't know how to use a shovel, they always use expensive mini-diggers.)
And they knew where all the infrastructure was.
Local knowledge, no faffing and looking for stuff.

Maybe the old guys even grew some decent organic veg and didn't use a vehicle to travel to work?

Nothing wrong with the copious tea to keep hydrated either.
These IT buffs don't have that as an excuse!!

[Nearholmer]

Hmmm …….

[PDQ Mobile]

Hmmm …….

Sure bit tongue in cheek,
But there's more than a grain of truth in it.
And the maintenance of the rural network WAS, without question, much better.

[Nearholmer]

I don’t think anyone is arguing that the state of rural and local roads has not got worse over time. If our own eyes and bike tyres didn’t tell us that, then we could instead learn it from multiple Local Government Association, HoC Transport Committee, and National Audit Office Reports.

The question is: why?

Your thesis seems to be that the introduction of IT has crippled the efficiency and effectiveness of maintenance activity.

All those reports, on the other hand, blame the problem to a large extent on reduced funding of maintenance since c2008, because councils have been rendered skint.

Words from a HoC Report:

“The squeeze on local authority budgets has also meant that councils are 'raiding' their highways and transport budgets to fund social care and other core services.51 This has been a common thread in the three inquiries the Transport Committee launched in 2018—into buses, active travel and this inquiry into local roads.”

It only got worse after 2018, so the previous government went into panic mode with “pothole funds” to try and sort it, and the LGA were calling before last years election for ring-fenced funds to be allocated for local roads by the incoming government, which I don’t think has happened.

Councils have really been cut to the bone in the past c15 years:

“Taking the period 2010–11 to 2024–25 as a whole, councils’ overall core funding is set to be 9% lower in real terms and 18% lower in real terms per person this year than at the start of the 2010s. The reduction is set to be larger for councils serving deprived areas (e.g. 26% per person for the most deprived tenth) than for the less deprived areas (e.g. 11% for the least deprived tenth).”

So, funding is down 18% per person, the road network didn’t get any smaller, the number of people in need of other more pressing services rose, and potholes appeared.

[PDQ Mobile]

^^
Not really.

My "thesis" has been throughout that the existing tight money could be better spent.
Not that existing IT has crippled it; though obviously hasn't improved it.

The initial example of the salt lorry coming EVERY frosty day to salt a tiny piece of road that would otherwise be dry or at least remain salted if the drainage infrastructure was reasonably maintained.
That is not blocked by leaves and other debris because it's never swept.

This not something that ANY IT or AI will ever fix because it is beyond simple!
And obvious.
They know about it but spreading salt is an option where no-one has to leave a warm lorry cab, or get their hands dirty.
It is also a waste of everybody's council tax except the few lazy (or blind) people who benefit from no road ice (which has a single cause).

There are multiple examples of poor fixes in my local area, stupid and costly attempts at resolving problems caused by a simple lack of maintenance.
Pretty much always unsuccessful because the cause is poorly diagnosed.
No Ai will identify these causes- only a man on the ground.
I have no reason to doubt that these types of problem are repeated widely across the Gwynedd and Conwy road networks.
Indeed I am sure others exist because I see them, though obviously not as often as on my really local roads.

To waste precious money on AI is just yet another example of poor management decisions.
It will come, I am almost sure, but I am not expecting on this one to be proved wrong.

It is money going into a solution that, in a rural road context, will not work, because (did I say it already?!) it is a simple (oh so simple) problem that needs a simple solution.
Sometimes such simple solutions really are best.
Why make them complicated?

[cycle tramp]

To waste precious money on AI is just yet another example of poor management decisions.
It will come, I am almost sure, but I am not expecting on this one to be proved wrong.

At this point, I really don't feel my time has been very well rewarded in explaining the situation... having pointed out that accountants, with proper accounting qualifications have costed A.i that the systems would have been tested, and that councillors views were sought... and they agreed that it was a good idea....and... my own experiences with the phone call prediction systems... I'm going to give this one up...
It's almost like speaking to King Canute.


..I keep chickens. They are happy creatures, but I don't play chess with them - all they'll do is knock over a couple of pieces and make a mess on the board. It won't stop them from strutting around like they've won

[PDQ Mobile]

FWIW.
I don't feel that my forum time on this is well spent either!

I like things well maintained.
Ever more unusual, actually, in the context of drainage round here.

I see the benefit, however, of doing these things on a regular basis
I even spend a certain amount of time doing the drains on my really close council road.; voluntary work,"as "cycletranp" suggested I should if I was bothered, though I've been doing it for a long long time- since the council stopped maintenance. They call me "the only shovel in town"!
I have no flood ploughing 4x4 and I cycle.

I simply cannot see how all this expensive AI electronic stuff will have any discernible benefit on these intricate country lane maintenance issues.
And it will cost.

In some ways I am sorry to be boneheaded about it.
But it is a genuine and rather passionate belief in the simple shovel.

If the AI does work as well I am happy.
But I don't expect it will.

[axel_knutt]

I've just spent about 20 minutes with the chatbot on the TV licence website. Every time I type anything it just comes back with "Please reword your question" and when I ask it to stop repeatedly going round the same loop, it responds to everything with "Thankyou for your question". There appears to be no way to speak to a human, so I'm going to cancel the new Direct Debit I've just set up as soon as it appears on the bank website.

[[XAP]Bob]

I've just spent about 20 minutes with the chatbot on the TV licence website. Every time I type anything it just comes back with "Please reword your question" and when I ask it to stop repeatedly going round the same loop, it responds to everything with "Thankyou for your question". There appears to be no way to speak to a human, so I'm going to cancel the new Direct Debit I've just set up as soon as it appears on the bank website.

https://m.xkcd.com/806/

[djnotts]

Not public services specific, but nice to see our special relationship will run to the artificial.......

"The UK and US have not signed an international agreement on artificial intelligence (AI) at a global summit in Paris.

The statement, signed by France, China and India among other countries, pledges an "open", "inclusive" and "ethical" approach to the technology's development.

Downing Street said the UK "hadn't been able to agree all parts of the leaders' declaration" and would "only ever sign up to initiatives that are in UK national interests".

Earlier, US Vice President JD Vance told delegates in Paris that too much regulation of artificial intelligence (AI) could "kill a transformative industry just as it's taking off".

Vance told world leaders that AI was "an opportunity that the Trump administration will not squander" and said "pro-growth AI policies" should be prioritised over safety. "

[djnotts]

I see great opportunities for streamlining benefits applications.

"UK universities automating interviews face ‘deepfake’ applicants
Automated online application processes save time and money but are being targeted by ‘the future of fraud’

British universities seeking to save time and money by automating their interviews with international students face a new threat: “deepfake” applicants."