Spain and the helmet debate

[mattheus]

I have split the 'Changes in Spain for Cyclists (Helmets and Hiviz)' thread in Touring & Expedition - viewtopic.php?t=163946, and moved posts which are about the pros and cons of helmets to this new thread.

Please preserve the distinction between the two threads when posting.

Please could you kindly explain why you moved my post from the touring and expedition group to this one debating the merits of wearing helmets rather than keeping it in the touring expedition group which I feel it is most suited as it is where I intended it to be as my input was about us riding in Spain which we have a lot of experience of? Secondly please can you explain why and on what grounds you feel you have the arbitrary right to effectively censor opinions you do not agree with?

Given that I'm reading and replying to your post, how can you think it's been censored?

(and surely it's obvious that debates about helmet use/effectivity go in this board, rather than one providing information to travellers - although that's the Mods decision, not mine, so I shouldn't speak for them.)

[[XAP]Bob]

There are always those screaming and whining about infringement of civil liberties etc being forced to wear a helmet against their choice etc, but if they do get hit by a car and hit their head, they are the ones who are going to end up dead without wearing a helmet if it could have saved their life.

I've been looking at "the helmet debate" in considerable detail for over 20 years, and while I have come across some folk worried about civil liberties they're quite rare. Almost as rare as the genuinely "anti helmet" types who want to actively discourage or ban their use.

Most of the people having problems with helmet promotion/requirement come from the angle of it not actually having a proven track record of making people any safer (notwithstanding the numerous "it saved my life!" anecdotes), it arguably having put a lot of people off cycling to the detriment of public health and distracting folk from measures that actually make a tangible, useful difference to cycling safety.

Pete.

If helmets were appropriately marketed, with an emphasis on their design limitations... then we might be able to have a straight debate...
But the helmet proponents have a tendency to overstate the capability of the devices, and to assert that it's always better to have something than nothing. Given the massive degree of overstatement of the capability of the devices, the second sort of follows, but it's just not the case.

The other common argument is "something must be done, this is something, so we must do this" - and it rather seems like this is what has driven laws in various places.

[pjclinch]

If helmets were appropriately marketed, with an emphasis on their design limitations... then we might be able to have a straight debate...

There's two broad flavours of marketing, vendor driven and advocate driven. Of the former, from the folk actually making/selling the things, there is a remarkable lack of anything much about life saving and safety track record. What they don't say is, to my mind, quite instructive about the limitations.

For example, I took a semi-random (first brand that popped in to my head, wave mouse about and click) look at a helmet online, as it happens a Kask Valegro (yours for £185). It is rated for aerodynamics, ventilation and lightness. The detail tells me,

IF Award Design 2018

Absolute freedom in the wild outdoors: every athlete deserves a comfortable, light helmet even during extreme exertion. Valegro, developed in collaboration with Team INEOS Grenadiers, offers extreme lightness and top-level ventilation even on the toughest climbs and hottest roads.

and tech specs are given as...

Materials
Inner padding material: 87% nylon - 9% polyester - 4% other fibers
Chinstrap material: Faux Leather
Shell finish: Shiny
Standard Detail
Standard: CE / UKCA - EN 1078
Weight
Weight: 180 GRAM

Which tells us pretty much nothing about what can be expected of it in terms of taking a whack.
Why so quiet about that? My guess is that the legal departments won't let anybody even think of going there lest it cost them a great deal of money...

Pete.

[Airsporter1st]

To be honest , I’ve not bothered to read through all the arguments and counter-arguments in this thread. What I will say as a resident of almost 8 years, is that I have not seen any significant change in the proportion of helmet wearers vs non-wearers in my part of the country. Long may that continue…..

[drossall]

Which tells us pretty much nothing about what can be expected of it in terms of taking a whack.
Why so quiet about that? My guess is that the legal departments won't let anybody even think of going there lest it cost them a great deal of money...

Agree with you about that, although I've just been pointed at this Trek helmet. Under features, they do make some claims, although nothing measurable and therefore nothing you could actually disprove. Amounts to "a ground-breaking technology", without as far as I can see saying what ground it breaks?

[atoz]

I remember cycling in Catalunya some years ago in May. Even at that time of year I found wearing a helmet in the heat of the day unpleasant. It would be even more so further South. But there again I'm a Northern lad, so anything above 25 C is tropical for me.

[joeegg]

I think the authorities in Spain have done this to clarify the law.
There were confusing exemptions such as not needing to wear a helmet in towns/cities and if the weather was hot.
They have also brought other measures in.Vehicles have to reduce speed by 20kmh when passing a cyclist and also allowing cyclists to ride in the centre of a lane rather than in the gutter.
I've ridden in Spain for the past 25 years and I've found that groups tend to "occupy" the road pretty strongly and make their prescence seen.

[mjr]

I don't understand, I find Spain the safest country to cycle in with the possible exception of the Netherlands. When last there, a couple of months ago, I met a German cyclist who had just spent a year travelling around the whole of Europe. I asked him what was his favourite country (from a cycling safety POV) - he also had no hesitation in saying Spain.

I'm not saying it's impossible to have a safe ride in Spain, but the crazy drivers and general victim-blaming attitude to collisions, culminating in the creeping clothes-forcing laws, make it unpleasant. I'm glad if the close-passing, "get on the shoulder" attitude and general machismo has reduced, but any country that tells people what to wear is never going to be my favourite place to ride.

Stick to Portugal as much as possible: generally better weather, better cakes and a country with a very long alliance with England.

[rareposter]

But Spain! I don't plan to ride there again until they get real about safety and repeal their helmet-forcing laws. More on that is in its own subforum on here.

The "helmet-forcing" is irrelevant to most people - doesn't apply in cities, doesn't apply in the very subjective description of "heat" and even when it does apply, the police will rarely bother you for it.
Also (to me) it's completely irrelevant cos I'd always wear one anyway.

I've done loads of road cycling (plus bits of MTB / gravel) in Spain, never had any issues at all. It's always felt safe and welcoming. While some drivers will be total idiots towards other drivers, their attitude to cyclists is almost always very courteous. Even on fairly busy roads, you'll be given acres of space that you simply wouldn't get in the UK.

[mjr]

But Spain! I don't plan to ride there again until they get real about safety and repeal their helmet-forcing laws. More on that is in its own subforum on here.

The "helmet-forcing" is irrelevant to most people - doesn't apply in cities, doesn't apply in the very subjective description of "heat" and even when it does apply, the police will rarely bother you for it.

Didn't they change the law to remove most of the exceptions earlier this year? There are a couple of long discussions, one on this board and one in the ghetto. The base fine was increased to €200 and patchy enforcement isn't a great thing, risking a two-tier system.

Also (to me) it's completely irrelevant cos I'd always wear one anyway.

OK, so we know your decision-making is different to most cyclists.

If you've got lucky and never had any issues at all, then it's easy not to see the downsides of a place. I suspect to most people who have cycled in all of them, the suggestion that Spain is second to the Netherlands, above Denmark, Belgium, France and Germany is totally incredible. I'm serious when I say I'd rate cycling in Spain well behind Portugal, but I accept I've only been to the Algarve and around Lisbon. Maybe northern Portugal is awful.

[rareposter]

OK, so we know your decision-making is different to most cyclists.

??

"most" ??

Some - of course. Where I tend to go in southern Spain is very popular with Dutch and Scandinavian cyclists. All countries that have famously excellent cycling facilities and culture and a very relaxed attitude to helmet wearing.

They all wear helmets without a second thought.

It's not just pure roadies or performance obsessed people on high end bikes, this is all sorts of riders. It's just not something they really consider. You go cycling here, you should probably wear a helmet most of the time. Haha, silly rules.

It's made up for by great roads, low traffic (in most places, admittedly down on the coast and in the tourist hotspots, it can be absolutely manic), usually excellent weather and a generally welcoming attitude.

[mjr]

I really appreciate the replies here, thanks all.

Re helmet debate, I've asked mods to move relevant posts to helmet forum so this thread doesn't get taken over.

Please don't post any more helmet stuff here.

I hope they will move it to the recent existing discussion of Spain's law and link it.

Whatever the helmet fan minority think, it is a current drawback with cycling in Spain.

[Mtb tourer]

I ride with a helmet hanging off the bars or clipped to a rear pannier. Today a few kms north of Caceres
a car off the road ,2 police cars and 4 policemen directing on an almost empty road. Had 2 hola,s and a smile no issues. Could be that today's car running off the road was enough paperwork for the day.

[drossall]

Some - of course. Where I tend to go in southern Spain is very popular with Dutch and Scandinavian cyclists... They all wear helmets without a second thought.

This is a logically odd comment. Any who did object would have gone cycling somewhere else. It's like saying you went to a football match and didn't meet anyone who hated football. The observation really tells us nothing either way.

[mattheus]

Some - of course. Where I tend to go in southern Spain is very popular with Dutch and Scandinavian cyclists... They all wear helmets without a second thought.

This is a logically odd comment. Any who did object would have gone cycling somewhere else. It's like saying you went to a football match and didn't meet anyone who hated football. The observation really tells us nothing either way.

Indeed.

And it may be that once these people have started riding in this new country with it's odd rules, they dont' spend any time discussing the matter with random English cyclists. Or indeed letting it ruin their trip.

And how would you know that they are "without a second thought"? Seems an odd subject to discuss, especially if you are yourself a habitual helmet-user back in the UK.