Lightning P-38

[nobrakes]

It's funny how things turn out. I have avoided this bike for nearly 10 years despite all the great recommendations mainly due to its aesthetic and non-aerodynamicness. I was always more interested in going as fast as possible, and I thought it looked a bit dated. However I was recently made an offer I couldn't refuse for one and I jumped on it. It's around 25 years old, ancient tech, rim brakes etc. Previous owner has looked after it beautifully though and it is in really good condition. And it has definitely turned all my assumptions about what makes a good recumbent on their head.

I've been slowly realising high racers just aren't my thing any more, too difficult to see potholes coming at night mainly, and it has put me off using them for audax. Also the extra hassle of getting started on steep hills, dealing with bad junctions etc.

I've only had one proper ride on the P-38 so far after getting it set up, 30 mile local loop. After about 3 miles I realised this was the bike I should have bought all along. The mesh seat is great, I got on really well with the ICE mesh seat on the trike and expected this. The ride position is much better, you can see everything coming in plenty time even at night. Handling is really good. It's faster up hills than the Pelso, a bit slower everywhere else. Possibly slightly slower overall on anything less than around 50ft per mile of ascent, but its marginal. And a lot of my rides are more vertically challenging than that anyway. I suspect at audax speeds which is what I'm interested in, it won't make any difference, or might even be slightly faster. It's the only recumbent I've tried where it feels like there is zero frame flex or mush in the drivetrain which translates to great climbing. My next door neighbour is a Moulton connoisseur and has been espousing the virtues of space frames for years. Rear tyre is limited to around 32C, but it's still really comfy. There's a 40c on the front which just fits and no more.

I read Blondie's very positive comments on the P38 and audaxing a few years ago on this board and kept it in the back of my mind, and I'm glad I did. The guy I got it from thought it would be right up my street given my hilly conditions and slow move away from high racers.

So I'm already thinking about selling a couple of my other bikes that I rarely use and probably moving the Pelso on again to fund a ROX frameset. I tried to convince myself the Pelso was going to work and I think with the right rider it is a fantastic bike. I think I'm a bit too tall for it. Maybe I'm being rash and I'll think on it for a while, but definitely I can see a possibility of sticking purely with a P38 in the future, with the Fuego for fun blasts to get that speed fix - it really clicked with me as soon as I sat on it. If I can get it fettled in time I have a 200 audax mid September I'd like to try. A really hilly one. I was going to use the Pelso but I think this is going to be a much more enjoyable experience on the P38.

So never say never, I guess

[UpWrong]

Glad to hear it appears to work for you. It didn't for me. I felt the riding position was too closed and I didn't get on with the seat.

[nobrakes]

I didn't find the position that closed for some reason, possibly because I still do quite a lot of riding on my road bike and I've trained to be comfortable for long periods on the aero bars which is so closed that my knees are almost hitting my chest.

I did feel the urge to use the quads more which I resisted.

I got a tip on the seat, which was to add extra padding to the front part. Also put a very tight belt round the lumbar region which stops the seat sagging under power.

[UpWrong]

I didn't find the position that closed for some reason, possibly because I still do quite a lot of riding on my road bike and I've trained to be comfortable for long periods on the aero bars which is so closed that my knees are almost hitting my chest.

I did feel the urge to use the quads more which I resisted.

I got a tip on the seat, which was to add extra padding to the front part. Also put a very tight belt round the lumbar region which stops the seat sagging under power.

If you have the older model with seat horns on the front then that is possibly better. They changed the design at the front of the seat to make it easier to put your legs on the ground to the side, BUT the seat sags as it tries to pull off the front and it tears a seam apart on the seat front pocket. It's a bad re-design.

[nobrakes]

Not sure what you mean by seat horns? As far as I can tell it's just a frame with mesh over it and some foam padding in the base. I'll need to nip out to the garage when I get a moment and see if there's something on the front of the seat

[UpWrong]

Not sure what you mean by seat horns? As far as I can tell it's just a frame with mesh over it and some foam padding in the base. I'll need to nip out to the garage when I get a moment and see if there's something on the front of the seat

With horns (square front to seat frame):

Without horns (round front to seat frame):

There are 2 different seat mesh kits to fit.

[nobrakes]

Ah ok, makes sense now. Yes mine is the older design.

[UpWrong]

Ah ok, makes sense now. Yes mine is the older design.

I'd be interested to learn what gearing the bike has or you want it it have. I guess hill-climbing is an important part of audaxes so having a bent which is good at it makes sense. I'm planning on lowering the gearing on my Bella. One of the reasons I got it is that it is meant to be good for hills.

[nobrakes]

I'd be interested to learn what gearing the bike has or you want it it have. I guess hill-climbing is an important part of audaxes so having a bent which is good at it makes sense. I'm planning on lowering the gearing on my Bella. One of the reasons I got it is that it is meant to be good for hills.

I've just put a 160mm crankset on to eliminate hard interference. It's a Spa cycles touring triple, 48/38/28. Currently there's an 11-40 on the back. There's a couple of gears in the small/small combo that are too slack to use but I'm not sure I'll change anything at the rear end for now. As you say, hill climbing is what you spend most of your time doing on an audax so it's good to be geared low for that. I haven't yet tried an audax on a recumbent but I can imagine it will be nice to have that low gear at the end of the day when you're really tired and you have a big climb to crawl up. My lowest gear on my upright audax bike is 34/34 which has been fine, but that would be madness on a recumbent on steep hills

[pjclinch]

My lowest gear on my upright audax bike is 34/34 which has been fine, but that would be madness on a recumbent on steep hills

Not necessarily... e.g. a Grasshopper that'd be a 20" gear...

Pete.

[UpWrong]

I'd be interested to learn what gearing the bike has or you want it it have. I guess hill-climbing is an important part of audaxes so having a bent which is good at it makes sense. I'm planning on lowering the gearing on my Bella. One of the reasons I got it is that it is meant to be good for hills.

I've just put a 160mm crankset on to eliminate hard interference. It's a Spa cycles touring triple, 48/38/28. Currently there's an 11-40 on the back. There's a couple of gears in the small/small combo that are too slack to use but I'm not sure I'll change anything at the rear end for now. As you say, hill climbing is what you spend most of your time doing on an audax so it's good to be geared low for that. I haven't yet tried an audax on a recumbent but I can imagine it will be nice to have that low gear at the end of the day when you're really tired and you have a big climb to crawl up. My lowest gear on my upright audax bike is 34/34 which has been fine, but that would be madness on a recumbent on steep hills

That's a good wide range. I also had a 160mm Spa triple on my P-38. I ran 44/34/26 with an 11-34 on the rear.

[nobrakes]

The Spa crankset seems quite nice. I've always preferred 175mm cranks so it'll be interesting to see how I get on with the 160s. I'll take the slightly lower leverage over hard interference any day, I nearly had a low speed crash before swapping out the crankset trying to get up our drive which is steep with a 180 degree bend. Much easier now.

[Gee]

Reading this wi5h great interest. I’ve don3 a few 300’s. I’m pretty sure that contact points are going to be more challenging beyond that.

I really like riding my Giro 20. If I could get it up hills I’m sure it’d be the answer. That said, audax is a long way - seething will hurt sometime!!

I could definitely try lower gears. I have a 50/40/30 at the minute with a 11-34 at the back.

I wonder how much better up hill a P38 or Bella is compared to my Giro?

[nobrakes]

Reading this wi5h great interest. I’ve don3 a few 300’s. I’m pretty sure that contact points are going to be more challenging beyond that.

I really like riding my Giro 20. If I could get it up hills I’m sure it’d be the answer. That said, audax is a long way - seething will hurt sometime!!

I could definitely try lower gears. I have a 50/40/30 at the minute with a 11-34 at the back.

I wonder how much better up hill a P38 or Bella is compared to my Giro?

I'm similar - did a few 300s on my road bike and was reasonably comfortable with the help of aero bars and an SMP saddle, but was aware that hand and shoulder pain was starting to manifest and going much further was going to hurt.

I haven't tried a Giro, but here's my observations based on a statistically meaningless sample of 2 reasonably hilly 30 mile rides on the P38. It goes up a 20 minute climb on that loop a minute faster than the Pelso for the same input power. That's quite a lot - 5% faster. Overall it's about .2 - .3 of a mph slower which is too small to make any real conclusions given that weather will influence it more than that. But that's a loop that has at least 10 miles of downhill or flat sections where the Pelso should theoretically smoke the P-38, but it doesn't, or at least it doesn't gain enough back to dominate after the losses on the uphills. I was quite surprised by that.

I don't think weight is too much to worry about with respect to climbing speed on a bent, on anything other than really steep hills, a few kg here or there isn't that big a deal. My experience is that frame flex is by far the dominant issue that robs power and almost all bents suffer badly from this. Every bent I've tried other than the P-38 and the M5 CHR had a mushiness when you put the power down. The Metabike Daemon was pretty good, but when you give it some grunt on the P-38 the bike springs forward with no hint of mush. I think that's the main reason it's faster up hills. I assume it's because the BB is triangulated and the space frame eliminates a lot of the flex.

I imagine the Giro will be like all other bents with the BB at the end of a wobbly pipe - not great on hills. So I'm willing to bet the P-38 would be significantly more efficient going up the way. And given that it doesn't really seem to be massively slower than a performance highracer that is very lightweight and pretty aero, I'd also be willing to bet it would be measurably faster overall than the giro, especially at audax speeds.

I'll add to this thread after I've done a few more rides. I want to get out for a longer ride at a more realistic audax speed to see how it fares. It's looking good so far though.

I haven't tried a Bella, but I've heard it's not super fast. Would love to try one though, it looks like a great bike to ride. Maybe UpWrong can add his experience as he's had both.

[AM7]

I’m also watching the thread with interest - I’ve always liked the look of the P38. Like Gee, I mostly ride a Giro 20. I have a couple of high racers too (Performer HR and Schlitter Freestyle) but on balance I think I like a more upright position and I definitely prefer a smaller front wheel for heel clearance.

You were lucky to find yours as they seem to be virtually impossible to find used in the UK (in fact Upwrong’s is the only one I’ve ever seen for sale here) and the price of a new one is eye-watering even without any shipping and customs charges.