Pubs Closing

[thirdcrank]

It's my impression that breweries always made sure they had the economic advantage over licensees. As with most types of business, this is a question of who takes the risk. Good economic times and 'can't fail' pubs = managed house. A pub that might improve with a lot of hard work = tenancy. No hope = free house. I'm not suggesting that a lot of free houses have not done really well, just that if a pub is on the skids, the brewery will sell it.

Of course, it is no longer breweries who control most of the licensed estate and chains of pubs are regularly sold and swapped in much the same way as boys in the playground used to swap conkers or cigarette cards. To mix metaphors, the music keeps stopping and another batch of landlords end up out of pocket, a business, a job and a home.

[kwackers]

I like your thinking - sort out the problems thousands of miles away first before we look to our own...

i like yours, that it's OK to have children on a dollar a day working all hours in an unsafe shoe factory, but you prefer UK adults to be out of work rather than decide for themselves whether to work in smoky pubs.

I don't see what you're getting at? Because we buy cheap shoes we should ignore the health of people in the U.K. ? Really?

Perhaps on the same basis we should bring back lots of the unsafe working practises that H&S have outlawed? I mean - there's someone with a pair of cheap shoes over there...

You're obviously a narked smoker who thinks they're hard done to, face up to the reality and move on.
Once you're over the smoking issue perhaps you can campaign on behalf of child labour - although I fully expect you to be doing that already.

As for jobs - have a look around, we Brits don't actually want poorly paid crap jobs - hence the number of immigrants doing them. But they're immigrants aren't they? Perhaps it's OK to drop job standards then...


P.S. I never said child labour was OK. You simply ass-u-me d.

[glueman]

My asthma probably originates with passive smoking 60 cigarettes a day as a kid but there's no proof.

In the 80s I lived in a terrace house that fronted directly onto the street and our neighbour had a VW diesel he used to leave warming up on tick-over for half an hour every week day. I can only sleep with the window open and the room would fill with visible bluish fumes and the most appalling stink. I developed asthma at this time never having had it before and I attribute it to his ****** VW.

That seems a rather churlish post, I didn't realise I was being stalked. I developed asthma as an adult in spite of being very fit indeed at the time. As I understand it smoking, and by extension passive smoking, can predispose an individual to breathing difficulties that are triggered by other factors like car fumes, pollen, dust, etc.
The asthma began about the period the neighbour had the diesel car but as a child I lived among 4 adults all of whom smoked at least two packets of cigarettes a day in the 60s and 70s. I have reason to believe I had low level asthma in extreme conditions before that as occasionally on say, audax's, I would develop eczema on my chest and encounter shortness of breath.

It's sad you've seen fit to justapose two posts which attempt to discover how an adult who didn't previously suffer the condition might develop it and by implication infer some exaggeration. I suggest the post reveals more about your motives than mine.

[hubgearfreak]

You're obviously a narked smoker who thinks they're hard done to, face up to the reality and move on.

you're right, but it's also about personal choice. if a pub landlord who smokes, wishes to allow his customers to smoke, what's the problem? in that scenario there is no-one entering the (dangers within the) pub other than by their own free will

i feel the same about fox hunting, it's something i find abhorrent, but i don't believe the government were right to impose their views on the matter across the nation, stopping people doing what they enjoyed whilst not harming other people.

[hubgearfreak]

That seems a rather churlish post, I didn't realise I was being stalked.

i'm sorry that you suffer with asthma. however, i can assure you that you're not being stalked (at least not by me). the time you mentioned the old golf just stuck in my mind for some reason, as some obscure things do. it wasn't hard to find with the search facility.l i'm sure that your mind is also littered with little fragments of what's largely irrelevant to your life without making you a stalker either

[hubgearfreak]

another batch of landlords end up out of pocket, a business, a job and a home.

it's OK though, at least they've got fresh air
(well freshish, apart from the transport, industrial and power generation fumes)

[glueman]

i'm sure that your mind is also littered with little fragments of what's largely irrelevant to your life without making you a stalker either

That makes absolutely no sense and fortunately I'm not minded to pursue it. Perhaps a nicotine craving is making you irritable?

[kwackers]

you're right, but it's also about personal choice. if a pub landlord who smokes, wishes to allow his customers to smoke, what's the problem? in that scenario there is no-one entering the (dangers within the) pub other than by their own free will

i feel the same about fox hunting, it's something i find abhorrent, but i don't believe the government were right to impose their views on the matter across the nation, stopping people doing what they enjoyed whilst not harming other people.

But then how do you protect the employees? It's like the European directive on working hours, since it was introduced every contract I've signed has had me sign away that right. The same would happen with people working in bars.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not convinced the solution couldn't have been better, but as I said before a more complex solution would be open to interpretation and misuse. At least this way is simple and not open to any interpretation.

Oh - you're wrong about fox hunting, it's an abhorrent 'sport' the government was right to ban it. Personal freedom should never be at someone or something else's expense.
There are more than a few farm practises I'd ban too - but that's another thread.

[glueman]

Public house implies the general public can enter the place without being endangered. I've visited a lot of pubs over the years and the worst were fun as personal fiefdoms by the regulars who crowded the bar and whose pound controlled the way the landlord ran his pub, whether it was his way or not.
A lot of the fuss surrounding the smoking ban came from people who were no no longer able to call the tune as the landlord had a legal requirement to ban the activity and their omnipotence was reduced. All IMO of course. I hope this isn't going to descend into a fundamentalist 'smoking isn't actually bad for you' thread.

[hubgearfreak]

But then how do you protect the employees?

how about employing only people who smoke or aren't fussed??

Oh - you're wrong about fox hunting, it's an abhorrent 'sport' the government was right to ban it.

it's my opinion. how can an opinion be wrong?

Personal freedom should never be at someone or something else's expense.

if you took your rule to its conclusion, then driving should be banned because of the killing of wildlife and pollution to the air. (cyclists and pedestrians occasionally squash ants and snails whilst out enjoying themselves, should they also be banned?) the eating of meat, fish, eggs, milk, honey are all freedoms we may enjoy at something elses expense should they also be banned?

foxhunters, like smokers, are in a minority and easily legislated against, whilst the ethical crimes that both smokers and foxhunters do are also being committed daily by the majority (driving, meat eating) yet go unhounded by the majority

I hope this isn't going to descend into a fundamentalist 'smoking isn't actually bad for you' thread.

anyone who claimed that would be silly. but sadly, the pollution you suffered as a child is still legal, for what must have been the majority of the week, whilst grown ups can't be trusted to decide for themselves whether to enter smoky pubs or not for a few hours a week

[kwackers]

how about employing only people who smoke or aren't fussed??

Because it's open to misuse. They may under pressure of losing their job have to say they smoke or don't mind.
I sign away my rights under the European working time directive - but I'd rather not. If it can be abused it will be.

it's my opinion. how can an opinion be wrong?

Easily. You can start with a stupid opinion like "I think murder should be legal" which is obviously wrong. Therefore an opinion can be wrong.

if you took your rule to its conclusion, then driving should be banned because of the killing of wildlife and pollution to the air. (cyclists and pedestrians occasionally squash ants and snails whilst out enjoying themselves, should they also be banned?) the eating of meat, fish, eggs, milk, honey are all freedoms we may enjoy at something elses expense should they also be banned?

foxhunters, like smokers, are in a minority and easily legislated against, whilst the ethical crimes that both smokers and foxhunters do are also being committed daily by the majority (driving, meat eating) yet go unhounded by the majority

Some things create worse problems by not doing them. If driving were banned tomorrow many more people would suffer as a result.
Similar arguments can be laid to many of your examples.

On the other hand banning fox hunting (and smoking in pubs) is nothing other than an inconvenience to the people doing it whilst offering tangible benefits to those people/creatures affected.
And in the case of smoking in pubs it's just a location issue - nobody is stopping you smoking.

[thirdcrank]

I do have what might be called a strong indirect personal interest in the smoking ban. One of my sons works for a company which does a lot of installation of air-handling systems (air conditioning to the rest of us) in commerial premises and one of their biggest contracts is with a bingo chain. Changes in the gambling laws have had an effect but the smoking ban appears to have caused a big reduction in the number of players. On the other hand they are doing more work on making outside smoking areas more comfortable, but nothing like enough to make up for the lost work.

It's never occurred to me to lobby against the smoking ban just because of that.

[Mick F]

It's something that occurred to me before the Ban regarding smoke filters and air conditioners. Quite a few businesses out of business. What about the ash-tray manufacturers? I'm not being flippant. I'm being serious. Some people lose to others gains.

I've never smoked. 27 years in the RN, and most of my service, I was surrounded by chain-smokers. Never bothered me particularly, just got out of the way when it became a problem to me.

I love pubs, but pubs have lost something now. The smell of beer and tobacco meant something. It meant old chaps in the corner with a pipe, a beer, a table full of dominoes, and some others playing darts. It's all gone.

Yesterday we were round at the Queens Head for a beer or two, then home for nosh. Later on Mrs Mick F went back up there for the Harvest Auction (raised over £2000 for local charities) (she is one of the organisers) and I wandered down to The Rising Sun for a 40th birthday bash. Mrs Mick F met me later. I retired hurt at midnight, she waddled home at about 2am. (More stamina than me!)

In the old days, our clothes would have had to go straight in the wash from the smell of stale tobacco stinking out the bedroom.

No longer.

[Deckie]

It's the decorators I feel sorry for. They were on for a dead cert re-decorating the pubs every year to cover the nicotine stains.

No more..

Now pub decorations can last for several years...

Lets all raise a pint to those poor decorators now searching for the new regular job.

Cheers lads!

[reohn2]

It's the decorators I feel sorry for. They were on for a dead cert re-decorating the pubs every year to cover the nicotine stains.

No more..

Now pub decorations can last for several years...

Lets all raise a pint to those poor decorators now searching for the new regular job.

Cheers lads!

Whats worse is that those poor decorators can't even have a fag whilst decoratoring the pubs less often!