Warrington cyclist killed

[nigel_s]

53000 people killed and seriously in UK annually by motorists - that's a thousand new corpses and cripples each week. Most of the victims are other motor vehicle occupants.

The only real answer is more effective law enforcement. A specialist Traffic Police Force.

But then the road lobby would start whinging about being "harassed" and "beleaguered".

And that would never do...

[kwackers]

The sense in that is quite simple, but two fold. Economics of manufacture and safety regulation. Your mini would cost a few multiples of it's current price if it where to make use of modern weight saving technologies, for example composites, which would incur significant weight savings. How much does that plane cost to buy and maintain, how practical is it? However there are many complications to consider such as how to scale up the production, and dust from broken composites can cause cancer. Also the crash test regulations are constantly being upped in level with the most recent changes being to give pedestrians a more cushy landing when walking out without looking.

I agree with all of that - however in my view the main sticking point is there's no need.

If legislation were announced tomorrow that said a new class of vehicle were being introduced (say PHG) and in two years all vehicles weighing more than 2000kg would automatically be in it and for the next 8 years after that the limit would be reduced by 100kg a year, I guarantee you'll see big changes.

The main reason the motor industry does anything is legislation - left to their own devices we'd have some horrifically dangerous vehicles on the road.

[UrbanManc]

It does matter that she was driving a 4x4 , the fact is, cars can be designed to only inflict minimal damage to other road users and pedestrians upon collision, 4x4 are the worst for inflicting damage and causing death.

Thousands of traffic police have been removed from our streets and we are seeing the results in appalling behaviour and horrendous driving standards on the roads.

[WesBrooks]

The main reason the motor industry does anything is legislation - left to their own devices we'd have some horrifically dangerous vehicles on the road.

Yup, as was the case with the euroncap (sp?) crash testing. It basically put them on the spot and made the bad, unsafe (or at least according to the testing methods) cars look really bad.

I think the new legislation that they've just pushed through will help. Basically if puts a figure on the average emissions across a manufacturers range of vehicles (unsure if it is to be weighted by expected sales of each model), and introduces big fines to those who don't make it. These figures are quite tough and will hit manufacturers like BMW hard. To be honest I expect to see them starting to look at weight savings to get through this measure, as they'll want to keep their performance figures.

I'm going to stick my neck out a little here, and I know that these following comments won't be appreciated by some on here. In my commutes I see no more likely hood of a big car cutting me up than Mr or Mrs average driving their saloon. Quite the opposite for me. Far more often than not its small cars trying to squeeze through tiny gaps between myself and the adjacent line of traffic. I think this whole hated of the 4*4 thing has been spawned in a large way by the media, and in some cases initially envy as these at one point where basically over blown, in your face status symbols. Now I know many of us here may not be at all envious of them, and in many cases probably find it their choice of these symbols funny. The tragic report that was linked to on the first page is down to a bad, unsafe, driver. One who was not carrying out their duty of care and attention while driving. She could have been in a smart car and done the same thing.

There is no point trying to figure out a way of persecuting owners of a particular type of vehicle. If there is evidence that people are not safe driving large vehicles like vans, big mpvs, utility vehicles, etc then campaign for the maximum weight to be dropped from 3 ton to perhaps 2. If your in the green group then if your worried about people driving fuel thirsty vehicles then campaign your MPs for real green taxes (and apply them to the fuel) where the money is ring fenced to counter the effect of the emissions and fund the implementation of new legislation like the one that has just been past which aims to lower emissions overall.

[UrbanManc]

Now I know many of us here may not be at all envious of them, and in many cases probably find it their choice of these symbols funny.

There is no point trying to figure out a way of persecuting owners of a particular type of vehicle.

Envy doesn't enter the equation ... they are pathetic and it says a great deal about the attitude and priorities of those that own them.

I think there are many 'points' to figuring ways to persecute owners of 'certain' types of vehicle, if you don't want a society that puts purely 'self interest' at the heart of a chosen lifestyle (inc. car choice) then those that make those choices need to be made to feel as uncomfortable as possible until this (and other) governments come to their senses and start putting community and environment in the forefront of the agenda.

[WesBrooks]

So all people who drive cars like that are pathetic?

If you want a communist regime where all is done for the greater good and a nanny style state which dictates what we can and can't do fine. Dangerous path in my opinion. But people want to own things. I want to own my bike. I want my bike to be as good as I can reasonably afford. If some one spends a half a life time of their working life travelling from place to place why begrudge them a little luxury, particularly if it happens to be a vehicle which is more economic than say a big saloon which may have also been on their list. Targeting a particular type of vehicle is a waste of time and tax payers money.

The cars don't kill, it's the driver. The same way that bloke on a bike recently killed the girl by refusing to slow down, not the bike itself.

[kwackers]

The cars don't kill, it's the driver. The same way that bloke on a bike recently killed the girl by refusing to slow down, not the bike itself.

But the driver that makes a mistake in a two and a half tonne vehicle is more likely to kill or maim than one in a vehicle half that.

There have to be limits - personal choice shouldn't be at other peoples expense, especially when for the majority it amounts to nothing more than a fashion statement.

[bikely-challenged]

I certainly don't begrudge any honest and hardworking person a little luxury, but I stand by my comment that many 4x4 drivers are aggressive and inconsiderate drivers. I don't say that lightly, and I'm not anti-motorist either - I'm speaking from my personal experience. Your experience of such people may be different, but that doesn't make my opinion invalid.

If I lived halfway across a muddy field I might want a 4x4 myself, but it wouldn't be a big black shiny one that never goes off tarmac , it'd be a nice old Defender.

[Geoff_N]

It seems to me, without prejudice, that many users of mobile phones while driving are in 4x4s. Maybe they consider themselves above the law because they are higher off the ground.

Having said that I was accused of using a mobile while riding my bike. I was in fact taking a swig from my water bottle but perhaps from a distance...

[pete75]

Sadly two cyclists were hit by a Range Rover in Warrington two days ago, and it seems the woman driver was using her mobile phone at the time.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... yclist_mum

Everytime such news comes around my wife urges me to give up cycling. I tell her that cycling keeps me fitter and healthier - as long as those metal boxes don't hit me.

This accident is more poignant because it occurred within a mile of my inlaws' home and so my wife is really putting the pressure on me. I won't give up cycling but wondered if members here had any arguments I have not encountered to keep their legs rotating in the face of such accidents?

Geoff

The report says claims were made that she MAY have been using a mobile phone at the time. Until it's been fully investigated by the police you don't know that she was. Similarly the investigation may find that the cyclists were at fault rather than the driver.

[kwackers]

It seems to me, without prejudice, that many users of mobile phones while driving are in 4x4s. Maybe they consider themselves above the law because they are higher off the ground.

Having said that I was accused of using a mobile while riding my bike. I was in fact taking a swig from my water bottle but perhaps from a distance...

I'm not so sure if that's true, but in my experience the drivers of certain more expensive 4x4's do seem to think that the vast sums of money they've paid for them don't just buy the vehicle they also buy certain privileges with regard to road ownership and use...

But 4x4's in general do give their users a sense of safety over and above what is normal and I'd suspect as a result mean they pay just a little less attention than they would in an ordinary car.

[Firebird]

It can be a hairy business, riding a bike.

I came out of school one evening, turned left onto the main road. There is a bus stop a few yards along from the school. I was aware of a large vehicle right up close behind me and of course it was the bus wanting to get to the stop a few yards hence. I naturally supposed he would sit in tight behind me then pull in safely.
No. With just a few yards to go, he overtook me, and pulled across the front of me diagonally, his back end sticking out over the opposite side of the carriageway causing oncoming cars to also come close to collision.
To avoid collision I had to "cat jump" the bike sideways onto the pavement, ironically nearly taking out the passenger he had dropped off. she was most accommodating when she realised what had happened.

[JohnW]

So all people who drive cars like that are pathetic?


The cars don't kill, it's the driver. The same way that bloke on a bike recently killed the girl by refusing to slow down, not the bike itself.

Yes Wes - what you say is absolutely correct, but neither you nor I were there when the cyclist allegedly killed the girl. Neither of us knew what happened. I can tell you about stupid behaviour of teenagers where they deliberately make it difficult for you not to hit them - on greenways, cycle lanes, shared pavements - I can tell you, sometimes there is only one thing to do, and that is to ride on. If you stop, they're fingering your lights, saddlebag, helmet - even you. If you ride on they sometimes realise that you're as resolute as they are stupid and bad, and they get out of the way at the last minute. If you take evasive action, they move over again into your path. Absolutely deliberately. If you ride on and you hit them it's tough - their choice of behaviour was their choice. The next development - already happening in some areas - will be random knifing.

Some kids are nothing but untrained, unprincipled demons. I don't want accusing of being teenyphobic and I'm not suggesting that all teenagers are bad, but a minority are and if you encounter them, particularly in the early evening when the drink is beginning to take hold, you have to look to yourself and look out for yourself.

I do not say that this was the situation in the example you are apparently referring to, but the judge's sentence does suggest some understanding that all was not as clear cut as some elements of the (anti-cyclist) press - and the girl's father - expressed it.

[Geoff_N]

Well said, John.

As a former teacher I have many friends who who were menaces as teens but okay now. I certainly know many contemporary teens as you describe, which is not to deny that most teens are responsible folk.

[WesBrooks]

Fair point John, I shouldn't have used a specific example. I was just indicating it doesn't have to be 3 ton to kill, and it's not the fault of the vehicle it merely made it possible for whoever was driving it to kill. The example was sighted to show that 120kg ish of rider, bike, kit, and a fair bit of momentum is more than capable of killing in certain situations.