Warrington cyclist killed

[glueman]

A lot of drivers are 'sloppy' and I'd put 4 x 4 owners in the upper percentiles. Bonnets past the white line, doors opened near traffic, parking at angles and aggressive or inconsiderate behaviour appear to go with the vehicle. It doesn't take Sigmund Freud to realise people attracted to large, shiny, elevated vehicles with muddy aspirations are unlikely to hold their fellow man's space sacrosanct.

4x4 drivers aren't alone in such behaviour but they do tend to have an exaggerated sense of the room they need and an overweening desire to take it.

[pete75]

A lot of drivers are 'sloppy' and I'd put 4 x 4 owners in the upper percentiles. Bonnets past the white line, doors opened near traffic, parking at angles and aggressive or inconsiderate behaviour appear to go with the vehicle. It doesn't take Sigmund Freud to realise people attracted to large, shiny, elevated vehicles with muddy aspirations are unlikely to hold their fellow man's space sacrosanct.

4x4 drivers aren't alone in such behaviour but they do tend to have an exaggerated sense of the room they need and an overweening desire to take it.

SO what you're saying is that virtually every member of the farming community is likely to behave in an aggresive and inconsiderate way? I think not.

[Ambermile]

Dammit Pete - you beat me to it! I am sure my wife's brothers would be delighted to hear they are ignorant road-stealing child-killing arrogant bum-wipes simply because they live/work on a farm. So, no doubt, would many thousands of other people that work to put food on plates in this country.

Arthur

[WesBrooks]

I'd love to see some real stats here. The problem is their big shiny things are less common than the rest of the typical saloons, so if you see one making a mistake then your more likely to remember it.

[glueman]

SO what you're saying is that virtually every member of the farming community is likely to behave in an aggresive and inconsiderate way? I think not.

Never seen a farmer in a shiny 4 x 4 yet and I've spent more than half my life in farming communities. Most of the 'off-roaders' I come across have even got clean sidewalls on their tyres and yes, many of them are thoughtless and dismissive of smaller vehicles in the food chain.

[Ambermile]

Right - so where did you mention shiny then? Are we now redefining the definition to only those with *shiny* 4x4s? Oh good - that means my brothers-in-law are only bumwipes once a week, though that may be for a couple of days depending on the weather.

Arthur

PS - yes, pedantic I know but hey - it's family and principle!

[jan19]

[quote="bikely-challenged"]I certainly don't begrudge any honest and hardworking person a little luxury, but I stand by my comment that many 4x4 drivers are aggressive and inconsiderate drivers. I don't say that lightly, and I'm not anti-motorist either - I'm speaking from my personal experience. Your experience of such people may be different, but that doesn't make my opinion invalid.


This is the point - its down to personal experience about how you view 4x4s. I live in a London suburb, where we have many,many of the big shiny things and they are often driven in a manner which suggests their drivers really have no regard at all for anyone else on the road. That may well be the case with many other drivers, however, as others have pointed out, in a collision with another road user death or serious injury is far more likely to occur than the same accident happening with a smaller car.

If you need one - fine. I'm sure many people on here know considerate drivers of large 4x4s who genuinely need one. However, you very rarely see one around here with a towbar fitted, and as for going off-road, goodness they'd get dirty! IMHO the vast majority around here are just fashion items - their functions could be performed just as efficiently by smaller, lighter vehicles and the roads would be safer for all of us.

As regards any sort of test - please could there be one that says before a large 4x4 is purchased, the driver has a test to make sure they can actually see over the steering wheel....

Jan

[glueman]

Right - so where did you mention shiny then? Are we now redefining the definition to only those with *shiny* 4x4s?

Read the post at the top of the page (adopting equally pedantic posture). I find farm vehicles like Land Rover Defenders less prone to driving crassness. At the other extreme I'd be surprised if a Porsche Cayenne/X5 driver didn't act as though they owned the roads.
BTW I'm not anti-4 x 4, quite fancy one for launching my fishing boat. If I do it won't be driven as a battering ram or cleaned!

[bikely-challenged]

This family in Warrington have lost their Mum, Wife, Daughter, Sister and we're bickering and name-calling about not very much.

Where did all this bum-wipe business come from? Nobody has called your family child-killers and bum-wipes.

[Firebird]

It's not just 4X4's that get driven erratically. It's fleet cars as well: their drivers are so busy charging round the country trying to hit their targets that self preservation and money overtakes competence. And guess what? They're invariably using Billy No Mates Boxes (mobiles!)
Recently I turned right into a side street (giving appropriate hand signals to show my intentions to motorists) A numpty in a white Volvo 740 estate followed me into the junction then tried to undertake me (almost literally) between the kerb and my cycle, to swing round in front of me to do a U-turn in the entrance to the side street, so the driver could go back the way he came along the main road.

[WesBrooks]

It's not just 4X4's that get driven erratically.

Precisely.

It's bad driving that needs to be targeted more than anything else. Unfortunately the drivers only tend to get caught after an accident - regardless of what they drive. The only way to currently catch them (except speeders, or those who use bus lanes at the wrong time - both sorted by cameras) is with humans watching either in police cars, or by camera. There are far to many of us, and far to few of them for that ever to work. Catching potentially bad driving early on camera - say on a motorway as it's a simpler situation - and re-educating those who don't give enough room, middle lane hog, tailgate etc early would help so much. Those with sloppy motorway technique are probably more likely to be involved in other accidents on smaller roads.

[jan19]

" Those with sloppy motorway technique are probably more likely to be involved in other accidents on smaller roads".

That may well be true - a poor driver is a poor driver whatever they drive, and wherever they are driving. The point remains that a large heavy vehicle involved in a collision will cause more damage than a smaller lighter one, and from my own observation of the drivers in my local area - and I stress this is my opinion from my own observation - those drivers of large vehicles are less considerate to others around them than the drivers of ordinary saloon cars. This may be from an inflated view of their own safety, an ignorance of the size of the vehicle they are driving, or just ego from having a very powerful vehicle, but they do raise the danger bar for everyone else. That's fine if the vehicle is genuinely needed, but I can't believe thats the case round here in most instances.

I'd never like to see the type of society where we would tell people they couldn't have the car of their choice - I just wish "fashion" didn't make large 4x4s so desirable to town dwellers.

Jan

[eileithyia]

Going back on track, very sorry for her husband and family what shocking news.
The name seems vaguely familiar, anyone know if she was a club cyclist?

Far too many motorists of all sorts are using mobiles too often whilst driving IMHO.
I pointed out out a driver doing so to a beat bobby recently, his brain was engaged elsewhere, I believe, as he reckoned he had not seen the driver using phone and could not do anything about it if he had done so!!!!!!!

[JohnW]

Fair point John, I shouldn't have used a specific example. I was just indicating it doesn't have to be 3 ton to kill, and it's not the fault of the vehicle it merely made it possible for whoever was driving it to kill. The example was sighted to show that 120kg ish of rider, bike, kit, and a fair bit of momentum is more than capable of killing in certain situations.

Yes - you're right Wes - it's just that when you said that the danger is the driver and not the vehicle, I hadn't properly understood your point.

I know you've not taken any offence, and none at all was meant.

[AlanD]

Whilst travelling with my girlfriend on the motorway, she saw a lorry driver talking on the mobile. If only she had been driving, if only the camera was not in the boot; that picture would have been with the police faster than you could say, "three penalty points."

Which begs the question, has anyone 'shopped' a motorist for this offence?

Alan