Cyclist-HGV incidents

[Conor]

Stand on any motorway bridge and watch the carriageway. Not a bicycle in sight. At busy times, many, perhaps a majority of drivers will be so close to the vehicle in front that they will have no chance of stopping safely if it is necessary. Now, you will notice that many of those highly trained lorry drivers are as bad as the car drivers.

I'm sure there are all sorts of reasons for this -

THe main one being that you can see over the top of the cars and can see the cars braking for up to a good half mile or so ahead so have plenty of time to plan for it.

And most lorry drivers on motorways are at least 60ft from the vehicle in front whereas when it's busy, most car drivers are no more than 30ft even though they can't see as far and are travelling faster.

[Conor]

I've never seen any evidence that lorry drivers are in anyway better than an average car driver, there are simply less of them.

May I suggest a trip over to the Office of National Statistics website where you can browse the accident statistics by road user type. From that, you'll see that for every km driven, car drivers are 6 times more likely to have an accident.

Most of us drive 1500 miles or more PER WEEK without having an accident. I currently drive 2500 miles a week including car usage of 300 miles. I've driven over 1.7 million miles in the last 15 years both points and accident free. That would take a car driver doing an average of 12,000 miles a year or 240 miles a week a whopping 141 years and 8 months to do. And I'm in no way unique.

[Conor]

Also when a cycle is going along a road and there is a parked car ahead. Didnt all your training prepare you for the fact that they would go around that car rather than stop behind it and wait for all other traffic to pass.
Only an utter idiot would attempt to overtake ANY vehicle in that situation.

Thankfully I recognise that some cyclists seem to have absolutely no idea of the Highway Code, specifically rules 162 and 168. They're easy to spot as they're dressed about as opposite to the typical "lycra lout" image as it's possible to get and usually riding a shed of a bike. If you've a proper cyclist such as you're likely to get on these forums, they're the ones who look and you know take responsibility for their actions. Sadly for the CTC, most cyclists are just average Joe's who couldn't care less.

[Conor]

Conor, do you mean the cycle you are following down the same road 'suddenly' pulls out past the parked cars that you want to overtake too? The one's you must have had a decent view of high in your cab? Why would you think any road user wouldn't want to get past the obstacle like yourself.

Usually because I've already got the front of the lorry a good 10-20ft past them before they decide to pull out...

[EdinburghFixed]

Also when a cycle is going along a road and there is a parked car ahead. Didnt all your training prepare you for the fact that they would go around that car rather than stop behind it and wait for all other traffic to pass.
Only an utter idiot would attempt to overtake ANY vehicle in that situation.

Thankfully I recognise that cyclists seem to have absolutely no idea of the Highway Code, specifically rules 162 and 168.

Unfortunately for you, you can't "overtake" an obstacle on the road - so a cyclist passing one is simply negotiating a narrows in the road, and you fall foul of 167: "DO NOT overtake where you might come into conflict with other road users. For example ... where the road narrows"

On the open road I would probably stop and let traffic from behind past (just because of the practicalities) but in town I ride aggressively wide *deliberately* to stop vehicles thinking they can squeeze past. If I could rely on their judgement I wouldn't need to... but like you, they are probably thinking of Highway Code sections that don't even apply

It's good to see all that training coming into effect.

[Conor]

The 'blind spot' seems to be a major killer in cycle/lorry 'collision' (the inquests I've read seem to accept that it happens and no ones fault)

No, people placing themselves deliberately in the blind spot of trucks seems to be a major killer.

I wonder if the sensors down the side of the truck would help alert the driver to check before pulling off or while driving along and more education in a campaign about cyclists at least giving themselves a fighting chance by being in a visible position to the driver's mirrors. 'If you can't see my mirrors I have no chance of seeing you'

You mean the type of stickers that many lorries already have on the rear along with "I make wide left turns"? It's a complete waste of time.

I've never driven a HGV so I don't know and I'm asking....when you pull away from a junction is it possible to physically look out the window and check what else is in that space you are about to pull out into? I can appreciate it's probably a limited view.

On the passenger side, no because the window is on the other side of the cab, 8ft away from you with a great big hump in the middle of the cab you'd have to climb across. On the drivers side, you're taught to check and the mirrors are such that you don't need to. Down directly in front of the vehicle, you'd have to stand up to see. Newer lorries have mirrors fitted to combat that however it gives yet another thing to check and it's quite possible that in the time it's taken to check all your mirrors and then the drivers side one one last time before setting off that someone has come down your inside.

Maybe if both sensors and a campaign about how lorry drivers move off at junctions, blind spots, how cyclists should position themselves, Mel wouldn't have been killed.

Sadly such a thing existed. Quite a few police forces ran a scheme offering newly qualified car drivers, cyclists and older schoolkids the chance to be taken out in a truck on private land and shown the blindspots. It died the death due to lack of interest. Occassionally a force will run one for a week but takeup is low.
The problem is though that Joe Public sees their safety as totally our responsibility and that even though there's numerous mentions of reduced visibility, blind spots, trailer cut in and wider turning circles for HGVs in the Highway Code as well as stickers on wagons and numerous stories in the press, they still place themselves in danger.

[EdinburghFixed]

The 'blind spot' seems to be a major killer in cycle/lorry 'collision' (the inquests I've read seem to accept that it happens and no ones fault)

No, people placing themselves deliberately in the blind spot of trucks seems to be a major killer.

People do get killed doing this and I think they have nobody to blame but themselves - however there are plenty of cases where the HGV has overtaken (or arrived at the junction after) the cyclist and *still* managed to smear them with a left turn. That's the problem.

[Conor]

But having read what I assume are truckers responses, it seems to me they're just cycle hating people who believe we have no place on the road,

Far from it. We know that if we hit you it's likely to be fatal. We don't hate you, what we hate are those who seem to think that they should take no responsibility for their own safety and place themselves in danger be it crawling down the side into the blind spot or riding down the road at night with no front lights. Having rear lights alone isn't enough. There's 53 feet between my mirrors and the rear of the trailer and all I have to judge where that is is a 6"x12" bit of reflective glass on the other side of the cab 8ft from me. If I can't see your front lights because you have non, how can I know when I've passed you?

I will quite happily follow a bicycle for as long as it takes until there's a safe place to overtake and stuff how upset the cars behind me get. Why? Because I know that if I get it wrong, the cyclist is in hospital at best and the morgue at worst which is something I've got to live with for the rest of my life.

Yes there'll be the odd tit but there's the odd tit in anything in life.

Just a question, what do you think the average age of a lorry driver in the UK is and how many are under 25?

[Conor]

A bike weighing a few pounds and travelling at 15mph isn't really that dangerous is it?

It is if they're cycling irresponsibly and causing cars/lorries to take avoiding action which can result in a collision. It's not the weight, size or low speed of the bike that's the issue but how its ridden.

[Conor]

I cycle and have passed the HGV test (in 2003).

Technically - skills wise- HGV drivers are top notch. In terms of attitude to other road users 90% of them give the rest a bad name. Conor, earlier in this thread, was a great example of this; claiming that it's the cyclists fault when he overtakes them in a dangerous manner, not giving enough space.

I'm sorry, can you show where I said that?

[Phil_Lee]

Conor, do you mean the cycle you are following down the same road 'suddenly' pulls out past the parked cars that you want to overtake too? The one's you must have had a decent view of high in your cab? Why would you think any road user wouldn't want to get past the obstacle like yourself.

Usually because I've already got the front of the lorry a good 10-20ft past them before they decide to pull out...

You mean you deliberately try to run them into the back of parked vehicles?

You shouldn't be driving anything as big as a rollerskate, with that attitude to safety, and I pray you get banned of kill yourself before anyone else has to suffer.

[Conor]

Unfortunately for you, you can't "overtake" an obstacle on the road - so a cyclist passing one is simply negotiating a narrows in the road, and you fall foul of 167: "DO NOT overtake where you might come into conflict with other road users. For example ... where the road narrows".

Perhaps you should think about what I wrote...

[Conor]

however there are plenty of cases where the HGV has overtaken (or arrived at the junction after) the cyclist and *still* managed to smear them with a left turn. That's the problem.

And quite rightly they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. You won't find any of us arguing otherwise.

[Conor]

You mean you deliberately try to run them into the back of parked vehicles?

And where have I said that?

[Phil_Lee]

The 'blind spot' seems to be a major killer in cycle/lorry 'collision' (the inquests I've read seem to accept that it happens and no ones fault)

No, people placing themselves deliberately in the blind spot of trucks seems to be a major killer.

People do get killed doing this and I think they have nobody to blame but themselves - however there are plenty of cases where the HGV has overtaken (or arrived at the junction after) the cyclist and *still* managed to smear them with a left turn. That's the problem.

Absolutely.
If we could reduce the problem to be ONLY the cyclists who put themselves in the danger spot, we'd be a large way to winning, and if we could persuade the highway authorities to remove the Magic Paint that encourages them to go there, we'd be most of the rest of the way there.