Cycling UK Forum

Hello Julian,

This is just the sort of thing that we need on TV, to bring the problems that we face on the roads to the attention of the motoring public. If the programme spec could be widened to include all motorists and not just HGV drivers, then I would have a thing or ten to say on the subject of overtaking and how the Highway Code is ignored. Every day I take my life in my hands and if I had a camera there would be no shortage of material.
I'll get off my soapbox now, hope the programme works out.

Alan

I don't have a problem with 99.9% of drivers of large vehicles. I appreciate that they are difficult
to maneuver and that it is safest to stay out of their way at junctions while they are doing this.

There is a mini roundabout about 300 meters from Junction 3 of the M40, located under the
flyover section. Not infrequently I see large articulated lorries turning at this mini roundabout.
It is impressive to see. They need all the other vehicles to clear the roundabout, then they
very slowly pull out and make the turn using all the available space. There is lots of squealing
of rubber on tarmac while they do this. If I get the opportunity, I let them go first.

Caution, bad language ahead.

<Vent_spleen>
About a year and a half ago at this same junction I had a garbage truck (domestic refuse
collection) overtake me at high speed while I was taking the first exit and as I was making
the turn. He and I were taking identical routes. By the sound of it, the truck may have been
empty. He was racing to beat me to the turn and he basically cut me up. I had not braked
I would have been a grease spot on the road.

A few weeks latter a garbage truck, possibly the same vehicle and driver, repeated the
above at the same junction and time of day.

I don't know, maybe he thought he was carrying perishable goods and had to be somewhere
in a hurry.

It has not happened again since, but I hope I never have to meet this F***wit again
on the road or anywhere else for that matter.
</Vent_Spleen>

There was a recent fatality on my Edinburgh commute when a left-turning dumper truck smeared a cyclist. I never found out if the driver was being prosecuted or not!

BBC here

Working from memory here, so this may sound a bit vague.

In the well known case of a trucker turning across a 26 year old female cyclist and killing her, the trucker got off pretty lightly because the cyclist was in his blind spot.

But the stills which detailed the accident clearly show that the trucker was behind her and then overtook her.

The reason she was in his blind spot was because he put her there.

Why has this never even been mentioned and why was it a reasonable defence?

Gazza

I believe the police recently carried out an exercise in Richmond Park where cyclists were invited to sit in an HGV and see themselves from the HGV driver's perspective. I don't know if anyone on here participated in that?

MDT

P.S I've found the message!! On another forum I came across that has less than 50 members...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondc ... message/32


the spelling is entirely Sgt. Lawson's!

From: Sgt. Peter Lawson

Sent: 24 June 2008 09:00
Subject: Cycle Event In Richmond Park


Good Morning

I've organised some events in Richmond Park to highlight the problems encountered by cyclists when they come into conflict with Large Goods vehicles on the road. We chose the park because it provides a reasonably safe place to park two lorries and allow cyclists to sit in the driver's seat and see the road from the drivers perspective. The park also attracts a large number of enthusiast and leisure cyclists.

I'm running these events on three seperate Saturdays, namely 28/06/08, 19/07/08 and 09/08/08. I appreciate that the first event is short notice, but I have only just received final confirmation.

I whether you may be able to publicise it through your links with the various cyling groups

Regards

Peter

Peter Lawson PS 29TD
Commercial Vehicle Education Unit
Hampton Traffic Garage (TDT)
68 Station Road
Hampton
TW12 2AX


Given their overweening desire to be media-friendly they might put on another one specially for you!

It goes without saying that the police are the people who will have the footage that your programme will need...

2Tubs wrote:Why has this never even been mentioned and why was it a reasonable defence?

Becouse, quite frankly, the general public dont give a [rude word removed] about cyclists.

A lot of them will be thinking: "Good - one less cyclist".

A time will come when people have to resort to cycling and other less petrol dependant transport means. At that point our message of "Please dont kill me on the road and please punish those that do kill" will be heard.

Until then I guess all we can do is stay safe.

David (feeling quite doomed today).

mobile deathtrap wrote:I believe the police recently carried out an exercise in Richmond Park where cyclists were invited to sit in an HGV and see themselves from the HGV driver's perspective.

I don't think thats the problem though - or at least any more than a very very small part of it. I have never seen anyone cycle up the inside of a truck or a bus into the drivers blind spot.

I have had a truck drivers put me into their blind spot on many occasions and then assume that because they can't see me any more that I'm not there.

I've had bus drivers cut me up in the same way even though they don't have the same blind spot (less recently though - I think bus drivers have been on a training course).

And car drivers cut in on me as a matter of course even though I am visible to them.

In my experience about 1% of the problem is cyclist error/stupidity and 99% dangerous overtaking

Tom Richardson wrote: I don't think thats the problem though - or at least any more than a very very small part of it. I have never seen anyone cycle up the inside of a truck or a bus into the drivers blind spot.

I've seen it happen lots of times while commuting - mostly happens inadvertently with cyclists who insist on cuddling the kerb. Often they cheerfully freewheel into it as the vehicle slows down approaching lights/junction. Me I sit resolutely in the middle of the nearside lane so the drivers have zero excuse.

Tom Richardson wrote:
I've had bus drivers cut me up in the same way even though they don't have the same blind spot (less recently though - I think bus drivers have been on a training course).

I had my trusty steel thermos flattened by a bendybus driver - in my backpack so it got hit first. It made an excellent shock absorber. I was walking along the pavement in the City. He was driving so close to the kerb that his nearside mirror would have dented my head had my loaded backpack not been sticking so far out behind me. No room for a cyclist in that bus lane - but I'm sure that's not part of the training course!

Tom Richardson wrote:
In my experience about 1% of the problem is cyclist error/stupidity and 99% dangerous overtaking

I'd say 25% - 75% but this will depend on location

We even had a house trying to overtake a HGV on the inside in our village!
It was lucky the truck only removed its gutter.
Then there was that bus stop that tried in the village 5 miles away. It too was trying to overtake a truck turning left, I dont know if he indicated or not. Oh yes several of our signposts have tried and the wall of our bridge

Good luck with this project and i hope it comes to fruition.

I apologise for the length of this post and hope that amongst the waffle a few pertinent points emerge.

I live in Scunthorpe can clearly recall 2 incidents involving HGVs and cyclists that have occured locally in the past few years which sadly will probably be typical of cyclist's experiences throughout the country.

In the first in 2005, 2 cyclists had to write to the paper appealing for witnesses after a HGV cut across the front of them in a cycle lane on the approach to a roundabout. The police wouldn't attend as although the bikes had been damaged, no injury had occured. Yet when the cyclists engaged in some roadside argy bargy with the lorry driver the police couldn't get there fast enough. Even then the appeal for witnesses to the initial incident came from the cyclists' letter rather than the police, who issued no such witness appeal. Taking near misses more seriously would surely be a starting point to reducing the number of cyclists killed in collisions with HGVs. I can't be the only person frustrated by the police repeatedly saying without witnesses they can take no action. Perhaps when they get round to educating other road users about what constitutes danger to cyclists they might find it easier to get witnesses to,say, dangerous overtaking instead of having to wait until collisions occur.

In the second in 2006, a cyclist was killed in a collision with a turning HGV outside the steelworks. In the newspaper article reporting the collision the only comment the police were quoted as making was that the best way to avoid these incidents was to get cyclists off the road-no reminders about the danger of turning lorries were mentioned. The local rags coverage of the inquest was no better - if the coroner or police made reference to the need for HGV drivers to look for cyclists and for cyclists to try to avoid being caught in blind spots then the paper didn't feel it worthy of inclusion in their article (interestingly the same page reported on the inquest on a motorcyclist who had died after losing control on a bend when over the drink drive limit- the paper was happy to quote the coroner on the pitfalls of driving when drunk in the hope of avoiding future alcohol related road deaths). Instead the cyclist's death was presented as one of these awful individual tragedies that 'just happen'. I imagine this is how many such cyclists deaths are reported throughout the country.

Unfortunately the local paper, the council via its Road Safety Partnership and Humberside Police have yet to advance far beyond waving smashed helmets around to promote the safety of cyclists. They go on endlessly about the need to be seen in order to be safe, yet consistently omit road positioning as crucial to visibility. Both council and police refuse to entertain criticism of cycle lanes-even local police traffic officers don't seem to have noticed how they can encourage unwary cyclists into dangerous positions at junctions. They also appear unconcerned by the sight of the local cycling Police Community Support Officers setting a fine example to us all by waiting in the gutter with a foot on the kerb inviting the left hook at junctions (if that doesn't get them killed then the fact they seem happy to cycle in the 'door zone' of parked cars probably will).

To attempt to return to the original topic, cyclist deaths in collisions with lorries don't occur often enough (thankfully) in individual areas outside of London so i wonder if they tend to attract a very different response from the authorities-they don't get clusters of such deaths so they don't see the need to engage in any preventative work, like the Mets work in getting cyclists to go sit in the cab of a HGV(i know some cyclists have criticised it but it's an improvement on what those of us in small towns get). It has always made steam come out of my ears that i've seen loads of 'Think' tv and press ads covering all aspects of road safety and yet i can't think of any recently, if ever, concerning cyclists. Surely, the cyclist-HGV subject is worth some of 'Thinks' time and cash and would be a good way of dealing with this issue nationally- after all a reduction in the number of cyclists killed in this way would represent a noticable fall in the national fatality rates.

JH22 wrote:
. . .

I apologise for the length of this post and hope that amongst the waffle a few pertinent points emerge.

. . .

Read through you post twice, where is the waffle?

I only found some rather reasonable conclusions to some well observed points.

Gazza

dmiller wrote:

2Tubs wrote:Why has this never even been mentioned and why was it a reasonable defence?

Becouse, quite frankly, the general public dont give a <i>[rude word removed]</i> about cyclists.

A lot of them will be thinking: "Good - one less cyclist".

A time will come when people have to resort to cycling and other less petrol dependant transport means. At that point our message of "Please dont kill me on the road and please punish those that do kill" will be heard.

Until then I guess all we can do is stay safe.

David (feeling quite doomed today).

If you really do feel that this is true then I feel sorry for you.

It just isn't so

It is not just a London problem.
One example happened to me at the CTC New Forest Rally. One youngster could not keep up when climbing the hill out of Beuleigh. I stayed behind him level with his shoulder up the hill. Some trucks gave us plenty of room when overtaking others did not even bother to move out, even making contact with me.
At the top we needed to turn right in a right turn lane. I signaled right and forced a car to let us over. When we stoped in the right turn lane waiting for a gap in the oncoming trafic I positioned myself behind and to the youngsters left. A truck came past on my left only just in his lane, horn blaring. The other riders who had waited at the junction comented about it being a near miss. They were suprised that I thought nothing of it. My reply did get a laugh "thats nothing I ride in Birminham".
When my wife a I have riden in Somerst Staffs etc I take a position behind a level with her shoulder so get a lot of vehicles close.
I have a class2 HGV licence so do know about the blind spots, but have not driven trucks for 8 years. I have noticed a drop in driving standards in more recent years not just when cycling but also driving. This is not due to visibility but as TC said they came from behind so saw me and still carried on.
This seems to be a mind set their journey is more important than mine.
This seems to be worst with trucks that would have timed deliveries.
2 Tubs comment "thank you for not killing me" is very apt for cyclists in Birmingham. It is one I have said many a time.

2Tubs wrote:Working from memory here, so this may sound a bit vague.

In the well known case of a trucker turning across a 26 year old female cyclist and killing her, the trucker got off pretty lightly because the cyclist was in his blind spot.

But the stills which detailed the accident clearly show that the trucker was behind her and then overtook her.

The reason she was in his blind spot was because he put her there.

Why has this never even been mentioned and why was it a reasonable defence?

Gazza

Survivor's justice, as I said earlier. Experienced driver, highly skilled etc., compared with some scatter-brained cyclist who was wobbling and swerving about all over the road.

Several people have posted that this sort of thing has never happened to them. It's only happened a relatively few times to me but it only has to happen once to kill you.

The first time it happened to me was a Sunday morning when the A1 used to go through the middle of Wetherby. I would have been 14 but already quite an experienced cyclist. A lorry partially overtook me and then moved left into me to avoid oncoming traffic. I was knocked of my bike - luckily onto the footway - and the lorry went over my back wheel. Another 'off-duty' lorry driver, all Sunday-best with blazer and regimental tie witnessed it and confirmed my account to the police, with an expert's description of the lorry but only a partial reg. The driver was not traced. I was uninjured but it was a long time before I was comfortable being overtaken by lorries.

This has happened a couple of times that I can think of in Oxford.

A student was killed in a collision with a dustbin lorry at Broad Street (this was the classic left turn situation):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfo ... 572045.stm
http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/201799 ... r_to_stop/

A bus killed a student on the Cowley Road:
http://www.oxfordstudent.com/tt2006wk0/ ... e_accident
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfo ... 830696.stm

When I was a student in Cambridge, I remember a girl being killed outside my college when she was knocked off and crushed by a lorry, which ran over her head. A friend of mine held her head together with her hands until the ambulance came, but the girl died. My friend had to see a counsellor.

A quick search of the Cambridge Evening News site shows that several cyclists have been killed by lorries in Cambridge too.