Cycling UK Forum

EdinburghFixed wrote:There was a recent fatality on my Edinburgh commute when a left-turning dumper truck smeared a cyclist. I never found out if the driver was being prosecuted or not!

BBC here

This article http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topst ... 4031109.jp lists a couple of other incidents at around the same time. I've kept an eye out to see if anything was reported about prosecutions, but I've never seen anything.

Quite simply because a cyclist and LGV fatality is rarely to blame on the goods driver.

As a HGV driver myself I've seen some idiots on bikes and in cars take the most stupid risks.

I don't want to go against the grain here, but if you look at some simple facts you'll see.

Tom saying that 99% of the blame is on the LGV driver is utter drivel.

The HGV test is 2nd in difficulty only to the driving instructor test. I know, I've done both.

We have to take a higher level of theory test, hazard perception test and an extended driving test not to mention a medical and that's just the start of it, we have to go through a CPC test every 5 years now. Yet on the flipside, any halfwith with a modicum of intelligence can get on a bike without training, tax or insurance and go into traffic.

Reading one of those PDF's someone posted and the vast majority of fatal accidents were cyclists going into the left of a lorry when it's pulled to the right to swing back in on a tight corner. The reason is because a good few cyclists have no idea on how traffic really flows.

As it goes I'd say the ranking of idiots on the roads would be this:
1 Scooter riders
2 Cyclists
3 Van drivers
3 Car drivers/Pre 1997 7.5t drivers
4 Bus drivers/Lorry drivers.

It's all down to training and mindsets. Scooter riders come top because more often than not it's little Johnny Chav showing off with his mates and cyclists second because of the absolute lack of training.

That's not to say that theres no bad lorry drivers mind you, but when a lorry driver makes a mistake and kills someone we generally have the book thrown at us.

Ziggy wrote:Quite simply because a cyclist and LGV fatality is rarely to blame on the goods driver.

As a HGV driver myself I've seen some idiots on bikes and in cars take the most stupid risks.

I don't want to go against the grain here, but if you look at some simple facts you'll see.

Tom saying that 99% of the blame is on the LGV driver is utter drivel.

The HGV test is 2nd in difficulty only to the driving instructor test. I know, I've done both.

We have to take a higher level of theory test, hazard perception test and an extended driving test not to mention a medical and that's just the start of it, we have to go through a CPC test every 5 years now. Yet on the flipside, any halfwith with a modicum of intelligence can get on a bike without training, tax or insurance and go into traffic.

Reading one of those PDF's someone posted and the vast majority of fatal accidents were cyclists going into the left of a lorry when it's pulled to the right to swing back in on a tight corner. The reason is because a good few cyclists have no idea on how traffic really flows.

Funny that, because all of the cyclists I know have at least a driving licence for cars.

But hey, nothing like a gross generalisation to kick off debate huh?

Ziggy wrote:As it goes I'd say the ranking of idiots on the roads would be this:
1 Scooter riders
2 Cyclists
3 Van drivers
3 Car drivers/Pre 1997 7.5t drivers
4 Bus drivers/Lorry drivers.

Do you not think the vulnerability of cyclists might force them into losing their status of idiot?

My experience would put that list pretty much the other way around.

Ziggy wrote:It's all down to training and mindsets. Scooter riders come top because more often than not it's little Johnny Chav showing off with his mates and cyclists second because of the absolute lack of training.

I would argue that cyclists certainly could do more training. But then I'm an instructor so perhaps I'm biased.

Ziggy wrote:That's not to say that theres bad lorry drivers mind you, but when a lorry driver makes a mistake and kills someone we generally have the book thrown at us.

If only that was true.

Gazza

You're a cyclist proficiency trainer?

Yes certainly some car drivers have had licences for years. But seriously, how many people would pass their test say ten years after first passing. A relative few I would wager.

Who's generalising? I've stated a fact. I said if you care to read it again, that anyone with a modicum of intelligence can get on a bike and ride into traffic.

I didn't say that any cyclist has the modicum of intelligence when going into traffic. Simple really.

What has vunrability got to do with their sense?

As for prosecutions, of course it's true. Just look at the news once in a while, you'll see that if theres an accident involving a truck, then the finger is always pointed at the lorry driver first and if it is indeed his fault, he goes down. The same way when a child is knocked down, the driver always gets the blame until the facts come out. There was a family of six killed recently, just read up on that.

A Portuguese lorry driver has been charged with six counts of causing death by dangerous driving after a family was killed on the M6.

Chef David Statham, 38, wife Michelle, 33, and children Reece, 13, Jay, nine, Mason, 20 months, and 10-week-old Ellouise died in Cheshire on Monday.

The six, from Llandudno, had visited family in Birmingham before the crash, involving three lorries and two cars.

Paulo Jorge Nogueira de Silva, 46, has been remanded in custody.

He will appear at Chester Crown Court in November.

The family was killed between junctions 16 and 17 of the northbound M6.

'Childhood sweethearts'

Police confirmed Mr de Silva is Portuguese but was living in Spain. His address was given as Calle Romero, Tutana, Murcia.

Mr Statham worked as a chef at St David's College in Llandudno.

Mrs Statham's family said she and her husband were childhood sweethearts who had been together for 19 years.

Tributes poured in for the family, who moved to North Wales from Birmingham four years ago, after news of the crash broke.

The Mayor of Llandudno said a memorial service would be held for them if that was what relatives wanted.

The northbound stretch of the M6 between junctions 16, at Stoke-on-Trent, and 17, for Sandbach, was closed for several hours after the incident.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7685797.stm
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ziggy

IMO you are confusing technical competence - and most lorry and bus drivers obviously have this through training, testing and eventually through experience - with psychological suitability, which is not measured. Your own ranking of road users is an example of this. You obviously think that commercial drivers are somehow special.

I've no doubt that the majority of commercial drivers, like the majority of the population generally are decent, sensible people. It's just that as a society we cannot afford even a small percentage of people with a short fuse and all the rest of it in a truck. Added to that whether we like it or not, increasing congestion puts pressure on commercial drivers to take risks. The magic words "I'm delivering" which justify anything. And the occasional bully in a big vehicle is an utter menace.

Obviously, many other road users, especially the young may have less training and experience and there will be a proportion of idiots among them.

It is true that you read of lorry drivers being imprisoned for acts of utter criminality like texting when driving down the motorway but a few minutes observation from a motorway bridge of huge trucks tailgating with impunity is only one example of recklessness and bullying that generally goes completely unpunished.

Edited to add: the above was obviously written while you were typing your latest post - that doesn't alter what I've said.

I have been hit by an HGV and narrowly missed by many. The HGV concerned was part of a contracted fleet from M&S. Thankfully I was ok. I reported the incident to police but they did nothing because I wasnt hurt. I was knocked off onto the grass verge as this idiot passed by and cut in to avoid a car coming at him in the othe rdirection...basically he over took when it wasnt safe, then decided to kill me instead of hit a car.

I have also ended up on the deck looking up att he front of an HGV. This one was 100% blocking the entire road width as I came around th ecorner. he should not even have been on that kind of narrow country lane with such a wide vehicle...he just laughed and siad he had no way of avoiding me because th eroad was so narrow...bottom line was he was still blocking my side of the road and he bloody nearly killed me and couldnt give a sh T

I hope Panorama do the show and highlight what morons many of these drivers really are.

You're right we have some utter idiots on the road, with little sense. But at the end of the day who has the high standard of training and who doesn't ?

If you've seen it from a lorry drivers point of view I'm sure you'd see that it's one of the most difficult jobs on the road. Time keeping, drivers hours, weights and a hell of a lot more. Keeping on the right side of VOSA which a hell of a lot of people haven't even heard of. You're looking in your mirrors as much as you're looking at the road in front.

I think they're special only because of their higher training. But to say that all commercial drivers are would be far from the mark. I specifically mentioned pre 1997 7.5t drivers because they're driving what is essentially a truck, but on a car licence which needs to be stopped totally. Bring the C1 rule in for everyone, not just people that have passed their test since 97.

I'll also say that I hate tailgaters as much as the next person.
Infact I hate bad driving and riding in general. If they want toput their lives at risk then go for it, but when they're endangering myself and other decent drivers, I say jail them and ban them from the road. That goes for idiot pedestrians who think they're somehow immortal.

I have had 2 occasions when truck drivers have shown extreme skill and driving sense and possibly saved me from serious injury while riding (or no longer riding!) my motorbike.
On the other hand when it comes to overtaking cycles it appears that all the emphasis put on the care required to do this during training and sitting driving teats is quickly forgotten when the licence is gained.

An upsettingly large number of the trucks overtaking me seem unable to comprehend the fact that I am a moving object. Quite often moving not much slower than they are.

On the road coming home HGV1s are allowed to do 40mph, I can easily do 20 on the flat or 30 on the incline home. Yet they still come in on me as soon as the cab is past my front wheel.

BTFB wrote: he should not even have been on that kind of narrow country lane with such a wide vehicle...he just laughed and siad he had no way of avoiding me because th eroad was so narrow...bottom line was he was still blocking my side of the road and he bloody nearly killed me and couldnt give a sh T

Would it be unreasonable to ask how it came to be that you did not notice a large and noisy vehicle approaching? I get the impression you wouldnt have been much better off if it had been Farmer Giles in his BIG tractor...

It seems that this guy's manners might leave something to be desired, but the bottom line is that trucks end up in some pretty unlikely places either because the driver has taken a wrong turn on the way to an unknown destination and been unable to find somewhere to turn round, or because its the best or even the only way to get the stuff on the truck to where its needed.
Some of the maneouvreing I have had to do recently, to get in and out of entrances that were designed for smaller vehicles in the days when there was less traffic about have highlighted two things in my eyes.
There is a general lack of comprehension of the space that large vehicles sometimes need, even for simple things like going round a bend. I have even seen letters in the IAM magazine (lent!) complaining about trucks crossing lane lines and encroaching on chevrons, etc. etc. I suspect that most have heard warnings, but they are unable to translate them into a practical understanding.
The absolute unwillingness of many drivers to wait while a maneouvre is completed safely.
I used the word "drivers", but unfortunately I could just as well have used "riders", or "cyclists"...

BTFB

Rereading your post, I think I would doubt that you were in the right on this one. Was the truck stationary and you came round the corner of a single lane road and hit it? If so then the truck was not at fault at all, even if he was pushing the hedge apart on both sides of the road.

meic wrote:An upsettingly large number of the trucks overtaking me seem unable to comprehend the fact that I am a moving object. Quite often moving not much slower than they are.

I suspect that this is probably a very important point. I had a surprise myself recently, while in the car, and near home.
I caught up with a cyclist just before he reached the brow of a hill, and drove straight past him. (On this bit of road there is plenty of room and I left him his share, ok? ) I must have been doing about 30mph.
Over the brow and going down the other side I suddenly realised that there is a cyclist on my bumper. I let my speed drift up to 35. He's still there - so I impeded his progress all the way down the hill...
I was surprised by his speed, not least because I've never got up to that speed on a bike in that location, and wouldnt want to, given that there is a Tesco Express near the bottom of the hill...
I have no doubt at all that a lot of drivers assess cyclists speed incorrectly, possibly for a lot of the time.

I've posted this thread on the Professional Drivers Association forum. Hopefully some of the drivers there would like to air their viewpoint on here.

I think this is all about perspective. It speaks well for commercial drivers that there are *so few* accidents involving HGVs and buses, considering how unwieldy they are, and the fact that they are on the road full time.

However, I have had more than a few close shaves with buses and HGVs who either couldn't understand how fast I was going or didn't care.

Any cyclist who rides down either side of a large vehicle and gets crushed has only themselves to blame! You never *have to* overtake anything...

But this applies equally to HGV drivers. Whatever anyone says, many fatalities *are* caused by HGV drivers (passing cyclists and turning left before clear, or just pulling back in). Of course with their highly trained skills, deaths are being kept down to far lower numbers than would be the case if Joe Public got behind the wheel of an artic... but that's hardly the point.

Even if ten million idiots flooded the roads on their Halfords Specials, it would still be the responsibility of drivers not to crush them.

I find HGV drivers to be very proffessional(Wish I could say the same for Taxi drivers and I'm glad they don't drive HGV's )apart from the odd one they tend to be very good drivers on the whole and considerate too,and more so when we're on the tandem.
7.5ton drivers(particularly box van type) are a different kettle of fish entirely.

A cyclist died in Oxford after being crushed by a bin lorry. Here is one story on the subject

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfo ... 572045.stm

I understand the driver was prosecuted for driving without due care and attention. The junction where it happened is badly designed. Most of the traffic is cycles and pedestrians.

I understand the both the cyclist and the bin lorry driver stopped at the lights. The bin lorry turned left and in doing so killed the cyclist.