Ziggy you keep coming back to the training and I keep coming back to the incidents on the road.
OK I accept I am unlikely to be squeezed off the road by a HGV during his driving test.
Once the test is over he is "King of the Road" get out of the way lesser qualified road users.
I take it your examiners are experienced HGV drivers. With no requirement to show car, motorbike, cycle or pedestrian experience.
Cyclist-HGV incidents
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Ziggy
I have no idea about examiners. I would say that they're highly experienced motorists themselves.
But that king of the road is totally bull. It doesn't benefit a truck driver at all to be involved in an accident.
Th attitude you describe is absurd to say the least, it really does show your ignorance.
I keep going back to the training because truck drivers are some of the highest trained on the road. The test reflects that. You keep ignoring me when I mention a cyclists lack of training to go on the road.
But that king of the road is totally bull. It doesn't benefit a truck driver at all to be involved in an accident.
Th attitude you describe is absurd to say the least, it really does show your ignorance.
I keep going back to the training because truck drivers are some of the highest trained on the road. The test reflects that. You keep ignoring me when I mention a cyclists lack of training to go on the road.
Last edited by Ziggy on 26 Oct 2008, 3:39pm, edited 2 times in total.
Yes I will continue to ignore the training because it is irrelevent.
It is a red herring to avoid the issue.
In your training where you taught at what point you can start to come back in to the left after overtaking another vehicle.
Did it also say that you do not have to wait that long if a vehicle does come round the blind bend ahead of you.
It is a red herring to avoid the issue.
In your training where you taught at what point you can start to come back in to the left after overtaking another vehicle.
Did it also say that you do not have to wait that long if a vehicle does come round the blind bend ahead of you.
Yma o Hyd
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Ziggy
Training irrelevant?
Okay how about abolishing the test altogether because hey after all it's not needed. How the hell can training be a red herring? It's totally at the centre of the issue. Your argument is nonsense.
Of course we were trained on when to pull back in, it's also common sense.
We're trained to make be as safe on the road as we possibly can. How much were you trained on that before you got on your bike?
Look at the facts. You have two people, one highly trained with the right tools to do the job and one totally untrained who may or may not have quality gear. Which would you say would be the most competent to be on the road or which is more likely to make a mistake?
Okay how about abolishing the test altogether because hey after all it's not needed. How the hell can training be a red herring? It's totally at the centre of the issue. Your argument is nonsense.
Of course we were trained on when to pull back in, it's also common sense.
We're trained to make be as safe on the road as we possibly can. How much were you trained on that before you got on your bike?
Look at the facts. You have two people, one highly trained with the right tools to do the job and one totally untrained who may or may not have quality gear. Which would you say would be the most competent to be on the road or which is more likely to make a mistake?
I used to have no problem with lorry drivers - sure they pretty much ALL drive nose to tail on the motorway - but then whenever you see an accident involving trucks on a motorway there's nearly always one with a squashed cab - Darwinism wins out in the end.
Then there are the phone using trucker's, (never understood why someone who drives for a living is prepared to take such liberties with their license...)
But having read what I assume are truckers responses, it seems to me they're just cycle hating people who believe we have no place on the road, using the argument of "we undergo training, you don't" to justify their position. Odd really - because if the training is up to much you'd think it would show them how to behave around 'idiot' cyclists.
Sadly there are some idiot cyclists on the road but they're no issue for me when I'm driving, why? Because I make allowances for them.
I wonder if that's because of my training - or because I'm a cyclist?
I think I know the answer, perhaps a truckers training requires some additional lessons.
Then there are the phone using trucker's, (never understood why someone who drives for a living is prepared to take such liberties with their license...)
But having read what I assume are truckers responses, it seems to me they're just cycle hating people who believe we have no place on the road, using the argument of "we undergo training, you don't" to justify their position. Odd really - because if the training is up to much you'd think it would show them how to behave around 'idiot' cyclists.
Sadly there are some idiot cyclists on the road but they're no issue for me when I'm driving, why? Because I make allowances for them.
I wonder if that's because of my training - or because I'm a cyclist?
I think I know the answer, perhaps a truckers training requires some additional lessons.
You say when to pull in is common sense and also you are trained when to do so.
You do not answer to an "unqualified cyclist" (who has the temerity to question) when that is.
My big complaint is that HGVs are pulling back into the left while they are still alongside me. Not passed me or 2 metres past me.
Really neither your training nor mine make much difference when those big tyres are coming in from the right. The only action I could have taken to avoid the situation is to have stayed at home.
You do not answer to an "unqualified cyclist" (who has the temerity to question) when that is.
My big complaint is that HGVs are pulling back into the left while they are still alongside me. Not passed me or 2 metres past me.
Really neither your training nor mine make much difference when those big tyres are coming in from the right. The only action I could have taken to avoid the situation is to have stayed at home.
Yma o Hyd
The training is irrelevent because people are failing to adhere to what they were taught.
Of course the training is necesary for anyone to be allowed to drive a HGV. What is also needed is some way of enforcing adherence to what was taught.
You dismiss my argument as nonsense, a sure sign that you are running out of valid points.
Of course the training is necesary for anyone to be allowed to drive a HGV. What is also needed is some way of enforcing adherence to what was taught.
You dismiss my argument as nonsense, a sure sign that you are running out of valid points.
Yma o Hyd
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Ziggy
Not at all, the majority of HGV drivers have a good clean accident records because of that training.
I'll say it again that it's rare to see a lorry accident unlike a car accident. That is indeed because of the high class training of the British truck driver. On the other hand cyclists have no training at all. That needs to change, even if it's something like a CBT session. Because the majority of cyclists have no idea what its like to affect other drivers on the road. This thread clearly shows that.
I'll say it again that it's rare to see a lorry accident unlike a car accident. That is indeed because of the high class training of the British truck driver. On the other hand cyclists have no training at all. That needs to change, even if it's something like a CBT session. Because the majority of cyclists have no idea what its like to affect other drivers on the road. This thread clearly shows that.
Ziggy wrote:Not at all, the majority of HGV drivers have a good clean accident records because of that training.
I'll say it again that it's rare to see a lorry accident unlike a car accident. That is indeed because of the high class training of the British truck driver. On the other hand cyclists have no training at all. That needs to change, even if it's something like a CBT session. Because the majority of cyclists have no idea what its like to affect other drivers on the road. This thread clearly shows that.
Compulsory cycle training? Unless it were to a captive audience (secondary school?) I can't see it ever happening. It'd be a nightmare to instigate and police.
Truckers have more training than cars? Of course they do - 40 tons of metal is a lot of responsibility. Car drivers have more than cyclists for the same reason. And cyclists? A bike weighing a few pounds and travelling at 15mph isn't really that dangerous is it?
(I'm obviously going to ignore your comrades ill informed and unsubstantiated remarks about cyclists being the most dangerous vehicles on the road.)
Incidentally I followed a few links from that video you posted - and came across three videos in short order that showed truckers overtaking bicycles and leaving no room. Have you any idea how much wash there is from a truck - even at fairly low speeds?
Personally I think if the majority of motorists woke up to the fact that a bicycle needs space and has just as much right to be there as they do things would be a lot better all round.
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Ziggy
kwackers wrote:
Compulsory cycle training? Unless it were to a captive audience (secondary school?) I can't see it ever happening. It'd be a nightmare to instigate and police.
Anything can be regulated.
Truckers have more training than cars? Of course they do - 40 tons of metal is a lot of responsibility. Car drivers have more than cyclists for the same reason. And cyclists? A bike weighing a few pounds and travelling at 15mph isn't really that dangerous is it?
So you're saying that bikes don't have the ability to kill?
I think whatever the weight (you're forgetting the rider combined too) any vehicle is capable of injury or death.
(I'm obviously going to ignore your comrades ill informed and unsubstantiated remarks about cyclists being the most dangerous vehicles on the road.)
I can't remember saying that, oh wait I didn't. I did say that a bike has the ability of being as dangerous on the road as any vehicle
Incidentally I followed a few links from that video you posted - and came across three videos in short order that showed truckers overtaking bicycles and leaving no room. Have you any idea how much wash there is from a truck - even at fairly low speeds?
Of course I do, I have actually been a roaduser other than a truck driver myself, owning a motorbike and a car. Hell I've even had a few bicycles in my time before. I am a pedestrian from time to time too.
Personally I think if the majority of motorists woke up to the fact that a bicycle needs space and has just as much right to be there as they do things would be a lot better all round.
I agree, I also think cyclists should be aware they're more of a danger to other road users than they seem to give themselves credit for too.
Conor wrote:Tom Richardson wrote:I don't think thats the problem though - or at least any more than a very very small part of it. I have never seen anyone cycle up the inside of a truck or a bus into the drivers blind spot.
I have more than once. The problem only seems to exist in larger cities. I've been 5-6 inches away from the kerb and looked in my mirrors to see a moron actually leaning their bike over to the left and scooting down the inside only to stop adjacent to my passenger door or just in front of the cab. Not really the best of ideas when the bottom of the glass in the door or windscreen is SEVEN FEET off the ground and therefore completely hides you.
I now make sure I'm so close to the kerb that there's no way their wheels will fit in between my tyres and the kerbstone no matter how much they lean over. Do you think it's reasonable for cyclists to do this?
DfT obviously do, or they wouldn't be painting all the cycle lanes there.
The ones that lead up to the advanced stop lines at traffic lights.
Are you saying you deliberately block these?
Now the experienced cyclist tends to stay clear of those type of lanes, but it should be fairly obvious that the less experienced cyclists are likely to be there - after all, the road markings are encouraging precisely that positioning, and as it is so predictable, it should follow that the drivers of any vehicle should be expecting them to be there, and watching for them.
Indeed, the highway code requires as much.
The danger for the cyclist is in actually believing that all these "well trained and professional" drivers will actually follow the highway code.
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George Riches
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pdapat
Indeed, the highway code requires as much.
The danger for the cyclist is in actually believing that all these "well trained and professional" drivers will actually follow the highway code.
The Highway Code also requires that you slow down when being overtaken
Does a cyclist ever do that?
The Highway Code also states that you stop at a red traffic light
Does a cyclist ever do that?
I'm a lorry driver and I was waiting at a busy road junction to turn right last week.
I had my right hand indicator flashing and was trying to find a big enough gap in the traffic.
When I eventually found one I started to move off but my excellent training and professionalism made me check my mirrors.
What a good job I did
There was a cyclist three quarters of the way down the offside of my trailer.
The highweay code also recommends that you respect signals and other road users
And while I'm at it, why not stick to the cycle lanes we provide for your safety too?
Or are you actually above using those
Pat
I cycle and have passed the HGV test (in 2003).
Technically - skills wise- HGV drivers are top notch. In terms of attitude to other road users 90% of them give the rest a bad name. Conor, earlier in this thread, was a great example of this; claiming that it's the cyclists fault when he overtakes them in a dangerous manner, not giving enough space.
If there isn't enough space, you should not be overtaking. End of story.
Training is irrelevant to THIS discussion because it's about how they drive after they have passed the test.
The most common problem, as others have said, is bus and truck drivers trying to overtake when there is not enough space, then cutting in on cyclists. It's just being a selfish buttock-orifice and they should have the book thrown at them for doing so.
Technically - skills wise- HGV drivers are top notch. In terms of attitude to other road users 90% of them give the rest a bad name. Conor, earlier in this thread, was a great example of this; claiming that it's the cyclists fault when he overtakes them in a dangerous manner, not giving enough space.
If there isn't enough space, you should not be overtaking. End of story.
Training is irrelevant to THIS discussion because it's about how they drive after they have passed the test.
The most common problem, as others have said, is bus and truck drivers trying to overtake when there is not enough space, then cutting in on cyclists. It's just being a selfish buttock-orifice and they should have the book thrown at them for doing so.
"Because the majority of cyclists have no idea what its like to affect other drivers on the road. This thread clearly shows that."
Yet again you are proving yourself wrong. Also with your comments about having no training. Way back as a kiddie I got the RoSPA cycling proficiency. Worthless but more than the law demands.
I also have a motorcycle and car licence. I am also one of those people you despise so much who have driven vehicles up to 7.5tonnes for a living.
On top of that I passed the IAM test. Then did years as a motorcycle courier, so I knew the difference between training and real life.
However these points are just as irrelevent as your comments about training. I only mention them to illustrate that what you are saying is rubish and trying to avoid the issue.
When do you pull back to the left when overtaking?
Yet again you are proving yourself wrong. Also with your comments about having no training. Way back as a kiddie I got the RoSPA cycling proficiency. Worthless but more than the law demands.
I also have a motorcycle and car licence. I am also one of those people you despise so much who have driven vehicles up to 7.5tonnes for a living.
On top of that I passed the IAM test. Then did years as a motorcycle courier, so I knew the difference between training and real life.
However these points are just as irrelevent as your comments about training. I only mention them to illustrate that what you are saying is rubish and trying to avoid the issue.
When do you pull back to the left when overtaking?
Yma o Hyd