Cycling UK Forum

It is interesting that Sue Coles's main defence for this bad policy is that they follow the same bad policy in many other schools.
I think that the route which the children cycle is more important than the age of the cyclist.

Also how very dissapointing that our children are all so very much more stupid than their German equivalents who do cycle to school at that age in great numbers.

I think our experts speak more from a position of power than ability.

We're working on very little information. The information needs to be specific to your situation. I wouldn't cycle during rush hour in the quaint and 'quiet' village I visit occasionally, never mind allow my 11 year old to - much as I'd rather she could.

In your shoes I'd do a written risk assessment on the journey from home for your child (bearing in mind when they're alert and behaving and when they're neither) and if I was genuinely happy with the outcome I'd show it to the head teacher and ask him/her to give her considered comments. I wouldn't do it as a generic one for any child because we can tell that children are different.

Info on risk assessments here: http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/

Speshact wrote:In your shoes I'd do a written risk assessment on the journey from home for your child (bearing in mind when they're alert and behaving and when they're neither) and if I was genuinely happy with the outcome I'd show it to the head teacher and ask him/her to give her considered comments. I wouldn't do it as a generic one for any child because we can tell that children are different.

I don't see the point in doing a risk assesment. The problem here is the poor "advice" given to the head teacher suggesting she will be culpable for any accident involving the child if they cycle to school and she provides storage for the bike.

As a parent I am very clear that is my responsibility to get my child safely to and from school. If the school provide bike storage, that's great, but it doesn't alter my responsibilities one iota.

I'd be interested to know if the same people would consider the head teacher equally culpable if, for example, the child walked to school on their own and the school provide (as they presumably do) a peg on which to hang wet a jacket...

Heres my first thought and i'd feel bad about telling my son to do this, because it involves lying. Tell your son to cycle to school. As he gets within visible range, dismount, and wheel the bike into school. If asked he is to say 'My dad accompanied me until.....'. This has the benefit of the school being able to claim ignorance.

Alternatively, I'd ask for an appointement with the head to discuss this. Find out why (let her speak). Try to come across as 'a desirable parent'. After she has finsihed , say thankyou and then ask for a second appointment (so that you can present your side of the story). Make it clear (in a nice. roundabout way) that there will be a lot of these meetings until the issue is resolved. You may be able to very simply come to a compromise. Also make it clear that you are not being deliberatly awkward or political. Make it clear that you are concerned for your childrens health and welfare, because of this make it clear as well that you will escalate it as far as it needs to go.

The head just wants an easy life and the best for her kids and school. If you start to bring in MPs, (get that letter in the post now), right to ride reps , etc etc It creates stink and controversy. this is bad for her and bad for her kids and school. Therefore you do have a powerful negotiating position. Be aware if you escalate it, she has to call in support staff from her local authority to support her.

PS i assume children under 10 are banned from walking and cycling to school alone? Walking being much more dangerous according to the dft.

PPS My mum has been a primary head and is now an inspector. Shes like a guru on how to make school policies work within their dreadful framework. I'll ask her about this.

kwkirby02 wrote:

2Tubs wrote:I wuoldn't let any kid of mine under the age of 14 or so cycel that road unsupervised. Not because cyclign is dangerous, but children still have a lot to learn about their vulnerability and road sense.
Gazza

What's significant about the age of 14? My 10 year old has more road sense than my 15 year old, and my 6 year old is fast catching up with the 15 year old in terms of road experience.

The whole point of this thread is that it all depends on the child, not some arbitary age.

Nothing in particular.

I just don't think that kids of 10 are very road aware.

It's all fine and dandy if a school is a trip along quiet roads, but I would be really concerned to see a 10 year old cycling along the trunk road near me.

I'm an instructor, I'm very confident and will cycle any road I'm permitted to use. But even I feel a little uncomfortable on it, not from my ability, but from the chances motorists seem to take here.

A school kid of 10 has yet to learn a good deal of road sense and to mix that with a rush hour moron is a recipe for something rather unpleasant.

Gazza

Snakes wrote:Well I've got two lads, one of 5, and one of 8.

My 8 year old's been riding to school with his Mum for the last year, the journey's about 1/2 a mile and takes them through East Dulwich, London. I can honestly say that he has very good road awareness and is a confident/assertive cyclist. I would add that he's been riding on two wheels since the age of 4, and almost continuously so.

My 5 year old's not so far behind either. He's been riding on two wheels for near on 18 months, and is improving all the time.

I agree with Kwkirby, you cannot put an age to this sort of policy. We all know that children develope at different rates. It really comes down to how much the child concerned is encouraged as to how confident they are on or off-road.

I am a protective parent, and I take great care when cycling with my kids, I'm like a second pair of eyes for them, but I'll not wrap them up in cotton wool! I want to build confidence within them, not hinder it.

I think with this particular case, you'll probably need to look further afield than just the local schools in and around the area to get those comparables. I wish you luck, and hope all your ventures are a success!!

You know your kids better than me.

And riding supervised is hunky dory from almost any age.

Studies have shown that the young and the old seem to have trouble judging the speed of approaching cars*.

While young children may have learned a good deal about the rules of the road, can we really trust their judgement on all aspects of staying safe on the road?

I don't want to sound like a doom merchant, I just want to add a healthy dose of caution.

Look through these forums and look at the close calls. Many of these have seen little or no injury purely because the rider is experienced enough to take avoiding action. I don't think it's right for young children to pick up this experience without an adult their for guidance.

In addition, young children are natural risk takers. No matter how much training we give them, they know better. They will live forever and it's just a bit of fun. I was that was when I was a kid, it's naive to suggest that other kids won't be.

My children will be trained to cycle safely on the road from a very young age. However, unsupervised they will be instructed to cycle with consideration on the pavement until I'm happy they have gained the right experience to cycle on the road without me.

Gazza

* Not saying we should stop anyone over 45 cycling, but at least they're adults who can make informed decisions about their own safety. In addition, they have the life experience to offset a poor judgement with other risk factors.

.

From info just provided, it seems that the St Mary Bourne school only provides basic training (not the approved national standard) for only 10 children per year anyway.
It seems to be VERY selective.

.

How ridiculous that in the UK a head teacher should feel liable for the actions of a motorist who drive without taking full responsibility for the actions of other road users of whatever age.

How ridiculous that those advocating road safety wish to sanitise the streets of the young, the disabled so that motor vehicles can maintain high speeds without having to avoid such obstacles to rapid progress.

How ridiculous that in this day and age it is the child that needs permission to cycle to school rather than the child who it driven by their mum.

How sad that as campaigners we fail to challenge the morality of our establishment in maintaining such policies.

Whilst all of the people involved think they are doing the right thing to protect children their lack of understanding of "the bigger picture" just creates faster roads and perpetuates their concerns.

Much of this will be debated at the forthcoming CTC/Cyclenation Campaigning Conference in Warrington on 15th November. At this CTC will be presenting their campaign plans for 2009. If you want to have your say in what CTC, Cyclenation and Living Streets are to campaign on in 2009 then come to our conference. At just £20 it is excellent value.

With sessions on :-

CTC/Cyclenation/Streets Ahead Campaigning
Tackling Bad Driving
Strict Liability
20 mph for residential roads

You can be sure of a conference that really "hits the button" on what is important in campaigning for more equitable sharing of the roads.

Have your say and we can start to right the wrongs which are implicit in this posts topic.

see www.streets-ahead.org.

Best regards


Rod King
Warrington

I've been watching this thread with some interest. I have a 7 year old you likes to cycle and I cycled to school (from the age of 13 if I remember right) and I have very mixed feelings. Of course I don't know the street layout which is critical. Unfortunately there is no chance that I'd let my daughter even aged 10 ride to her school since the road layout is really very scary being on a side road off a huge one-way giratory system. I also wonder what cycling to school is really like at the moment vs when I was a kid (the early 80s in Surrey) when there was so much less traffic than there is now.

But I think it is up to a parent rather than a teacher to determine whether your child is ready.

I am Cycling Instructor who teaches children in central and east London.

I have looked up St Mary Bourne in Test Valley, Hants on the map and found that I have cycled passed this school on a number of occasions

Questions

1 Does the school have a school Travels Plan?
2 What is the local accident rate for cyclist?
3 Has the school been subjected to safe routes to school scheme?
4 What is the local accident rate for cyclist?
5 Do any of the teachers of the school cycle?
6 Is there a speeding problem along the local roads?
7 Can the number a cars be reduced on the local roads by traffic measures?
8 Could you set a local school cycling club so that child could go to school as club run?
9 Does the Local Authority run Bikeability /National Standard Cycle Training Courses?
10 Could the school ban cars from its premises and the local authority ban parking near to the school?


These are some ideas to think about, I hope it helps.

Many of the children I work with already ride on London in place like Camdenr and they are age 9

mikestead wrote:Hi all,

Our child's school (St Mary Bourne in Test Valley, Hants) has just enacted the following policy re cycling to school:

"We have been advised by the Road Safety Team at Winchester [Hampshire County Council base] that only children who have completed cycling proficiency and are aged 10 years or above, should be allowed to cycle to school unaccompanied. Any child under 10 must cycle to school with an adult if they wish to leave their bike on school premesis. If your child wishes to cycle to school they will need to apply for a cycle permit for 2008/2009 which can be collected from the school office"

Bear in mind St Mary Bourne is the typical 'sleepy English thatched village'. 95% of school-time traffic is parents themselves.

What mandate do schools have to do this? The head advised me she chose this path because "some people had complained about children riding recklessly in the village". She feels if she provides cycle storage [therefore encouraging cycling] and a child is injured on the way to/from school, she will be culpable. HCC Road Safety Team have apparently advised her as much.

Any suggestions? Help available? Where to I begin to battle this ill-advised scheme?

n.b. I ran the Cycling Proficiency training for the school this year too!

Cheers,

Mike

2Tubs wrote:I just don't think that kids of 10 are very road aware.

Depends what you mean by "road aware", I suppose. Our three-year-old twins are very aware of the difference between pavements (where they've been riding their learner bikes for a year now) and the roads. They will stop and wait for instructions before crossing any road, the same as they do when walking.

However we don't yet let them ride on the road, although we ride on the road beside them, and they are not reliable enough to go out on their own where there are cars about. This is not because they don't understand the dangers (they can get quite frightened by big lorries driving past noisily) but because they are not always paying full attention to where they are.

However, we know other children of the same age, who have rarely been allowed out of the house for safety reasons, who have no clue at all about roads. We feel nervous taking these children just for a walk, in case they suddenly run into traffic. There is no way I'd want to take them out on a learner bike, not even in a park with padded walls...

Interesting thread.

I started by trying to empathise with the headteacher
1. Fear of litigation etc if it all went wrong
2. Emotional fear (her/other staff/other students) if something happened to a kid who attends her school.
3. Fear of setting a precent - others might cycle and they havent got the facilities
4. Mechanical state of bikes - some will have no brakes etc. what if someone punctures on the way to school. Which staff member will fix it, or will no-one care?
5. Risk of theft
6. She's biding her time till retirement and doesnt want to take on any change.

If you really want to pursue it, ask if you can attend a governors' meeting. Write to the chair of governors to state your intentions and tell them you'll limit it to 20 minutes - if its interesting, they'll not hold you to 20 mins. The governors represent the school stakeholders and comprise a mix of staff, parents, LEA and community reps. The headteacher is legally responsible to the governors. The PTA, as someone suggested, is only focussed on obtaining additional funding thru school fairs, socials etc, so cant help.

Put everyone on a back foot, but in a diplomatic way. Ask to see the schools transport plan. If they have one, it will undoubtedly include cycling to/from school. If they havent, ask why, especially as a successful transport plan attracts £000's used to improve facilites (bike racks). Ask to see the healthy schools policy (could have a different name). If they dont have one, ask why not. Again there is funding that goes with this.

Legally the school cannot refuse your kid cycling to school. They can only go as far as refusing to let a bike onto school grounds. However, to make her feel better give the school a letter of written consent allowing your child to cycle and absolving the school of any blame in the event of accident outside of school grounds. You could extend this further by absolving them whilst on school grounds for accident and theft if you see fit.

By all means talk to her and work with her and the govs to get a result. Dont be an amateur know-it-all banging on about rights and threatening with press, solicitors etc cos you'll only alienate. Use these as a final recourse once negotiations have broken. It is perhaps her naivety, rather than point blank refusal, so sell, rather than tell.

ps. quick afterthought = ask whos subject leader for PE and see if you can convice them.

Having cycled through St Mary Bourne many times I am appalled that they think the road is too 'dangerous' to allow children to go to school by themselves. Yes, it is a B-road, but it is very quiet.

The problem is that it is still engineered as a 'road' not as a 'street'.

It has a 30 mph limit, it has centrelines, it has gateways saying 'Drive safely' (implying speed up when you leave?). They recently resurfaced the road, badly. For several weeks there was no centreline, as a cyclist it felt slower and more pleasant for that short period.

Further on along the road at Hurstbourne Tarrant the road has 30 mph signs with '20's plenty' signs just beneath them. The council seems to think that 20 is the appropriate speed in these villages, yet uses a 30 mph limit - a problem with the regulations, I think!