A81 (and other rural areas)

[Datalead]

At the risk of needing a nomex suit to read the replies I'm going to have a bit of a rant here.

As someone that previously has done a lot of distance cycling, and still does a fair bit through the forest I live in, I get doubly hot under the collar about the inconsiderate and downright stupid cyclists we suffer from every weekend on the A81 north of Glasgow.

We frequently have groups out of Glasgow that block the road for other users by riding several wide including through some of the sections where there are blind bends/ rises therefore the danger is anyone stuck behind them is at risk from other traffic approaching at speed as well as the obvious danger of the cyclists themselves being mowed down.

What makes the matter worse is National Cycle route 7 parallels the A81 for a bit of it's length, including being 10 yards away from the road as it goes through one of the most dangerous sequences of bends and rises near Aberfoyle yet some of the idiots wouldn't dream of using it.

What has brought this to a head for me was on Sunday while driving down into Glasgow I got stuck behind three cyclists doing less than 10mph heading up the twisting bit uphill from Strathblane. They were milling about, varying from 2 to 3 abreast while a cue of traffic formed behind them unable to safely get past and in danger of being rear-ended if someone came up too fast (we have our fair share of moronic drivers out of Glasgow as well) all made worse by the fog we had at that point. When the others managed to get past and I started to, one of the riders swerved in front of me (I was 90% in the opposite lane and if he had held his course I would have been 8ft+ clear of him). What was worse was because I hit my horn as I swerved I got the full range of insulting gestures, all visible by my youngest daughter who was in the back of the car.

I stopped in a layby a bit further on to have words and was amazed that the three cyclists (at a guess) were 2 in their 30's and one in his 60's and not the teenage yobs they were acting like. They just couldn't see that they nearly caused an accident and it would have been them in hospital if I hadn't swerved. Ironically one of them said they were "going to get the police" to me, in reality I made a report of careless cycling and breach of the peace at the station in Milngavie but by the time a unit could get over to the main road there was no sign of them. I have to admit as an ex-boxer I was very tempted to give them a comparison of the two sports.

So at the risk of getting flamed; if you cycle on the road, and especially if you cycle on country roads that people who live out in the sticks have to use as the only means of transport, think about how you are riding. Going down a very quiet B road you might be fine riding 3 or 4 abreast because you will see or hear anything coming and it's not likely to be coming that fast but if you are on an A road it might not be a great deal wider or straighter than the B road but people who live out here expect to be able to use it at a reasonable speed and not be held up in dangerous parts of it by a bunch of selfish cyclists who should be using the cycle track where they can and quiet back roads the rest of the time (or ride in single file to let other road users past).

[meic]

I am glad you got that of your chest.

It looks like sharing the road is a bit of a burden to you! As you suggest that the cyclists forfeit that bit of road and go cycle on some cycle track instead. It would only be fair to suggest that you forfeit that bit of road and take an alternative route yourself.

With respect to your comments about the conduct of the cyclists that you encountered, I seriously doubt that they are members of this forum, so why bother us with the complaint.

I watched a car overtake on a zebra crossing today being used by two young children. Does the fact that you drive a car mean I should complain to you about it?

Do you think that cyclists are some sort of alien? Most of us drive cars too and there are good cyclists and bad cyclists just as there are good drivers and bad drivers. Generally these people are much safer when they are being bad cyclists than when they are being bad drivers.

We can not address what happened with respect to the group of cyclists but your comments that cyclists should be on a cycle track rather than on the road where they belong can be addressed.
It shows that you have an attitude of intolerance of other road users.

Can you say how long that you were delayed by these cyclists?
You say you overtook 90% in the other lane, in future try 100% in the other lane.
Do you know how difficult it is to swerve right across the lane of an A road. I find it hard to believe that a cyclist doing 10mph can swerve that far while a car overtakes them.

As a car driver myself. I have had a bellyfull of meeting impatient motorists coming towards me on my side of the road because they couldnt wait until it was safe to overtake.
I have also caused drivers who were hoping to maintain a "reasonable speed" (as you say) to attempt to overtake me in dangerous positions because I was going so slow that I was obeying the speed limit.

So forget "Car Driver" v "Cyclist" and think about "Good road user" v "Bad Road User".
I am so glad you resisted the temptation to use your boxing skills to settle the legitamcy of your driving complaint especially with your daughter watching.
Did you feel the need to resort to violence because you had been endangered by a cyclist doing under 10mph? Whilst in your 1 ton car?

Edit: Glad I got that of my chest

PS There is a saying "Man I wish I had your problems!"

[eileithyia]

Well said Meic. Could not have put it better.

Personally I feel if the road is too narrow, has blind spots then it is unsafe to overtake cyclists regardless of whether they are single, double or three abreast.

Not sure I see anything too fundamentally wrong with what they were doing. If the Scottish roads were icy as was widely forecast on national TV., then it is probable they were exercising a degree of caution. If the road wasn't icy then maybe the cycle path was, so it would have been safer to be on the road.

Because of the very nature of the beast, riding uphill tends to cause a degree of bunching of riders, and you should not have been considering overtaking them at this point anyway. Had they been more spread out it would only have served to increase the length of the hazard, making eventually overtaking even more dangerous.

As an experienced cyclst I would hope you would have a more tolerant attitude to all road users.

[glueman]

insulting gestures, all visible by my youngest daughter who was in the back of the car.

I stopped in a layby a bit further on to have words

So you were worried about the effect of some rude gestures on a child but not the trauma of seeing her father in a punch up with three blokes?

[dmiller]

If the Scottish roads were icy as was widely forecast on national TV., then it is probable they were exercising a degree of caution. If the road wasn't icy then maybe the cycle path was, so it would have been safer to be on the road.

Knowing that bit of road and the cycle path in question - I would say that on Saturday the road would have been free from ice in the two "tracks" that car tryes leave - prob why they were two abreast...

I would also say that the cycle path would have been sheet ice and fooking deadly.

So I guess our OP might be best to wait for a bit in freezing fog on a icy road before passing cyclists... just a thought.

Oh and the "Im a cyclist too" bit... I hear that about as often as "sorry mate - didnt see you". I call cow dung on that.

Glad thats off my chest

[iaincullen]

I drive the A81 myself. I feel that much of the road especially the twisty section between Dumgoyne and Blanefield is so narrow that there isn't space for two cars and a cyclist to be (safely) alongside each other at the same time.

So it could be argued that it doesn't matter whether cyclists are single file or two abreast because much of the time a safe overtake means waiting for a gap in oncoming traffic anyway.

In fact the last time I drove it I was held up for a minute or so before I could pass a cyclist safely. The only thing I remember thinking was that he was encouraging unsafe overtakes by riding almost in the gutter.

[essexman]

At the risk of needing a nomex suit to read the replies I'm going to have a bit of a rant here.

As someone that previously has done a lot of distance driving, and still does a fair bit through the area I live in, I get doubly hot under the collar about the inconsiderate and downright stupid drivers we suffer from every weekend on the main roads in Essex.

We frequently have groups out of Essex that ruin the roads for other users by driving too fast or too wide including through some of the sections where there are blind bends/ rises therefore the danger is everyone is at risk from other traffic approaching at speed as well as the obvious danger of the drivers themselves being mowed down.

What makes the matter worse is that there are other routes , other forms of transport and other ways of driving yet some of the idiots wouldn't dream of using it.

blah blah blah me me me me i've frequently wanted to get off my bike and beat them up because i'm so hard, but i couldnt cos my little boy was on the back of the bike.....

So at the risk of getting flamed; if you drive on the road, and especially if you drive on country roads that people who live out in the sticks have to use as the only means of getting around , think about how you are driving. Going down a very quiet B road you will not be fine driving fast round a corner because they are used by pedestrians , cyclists, tractors, horses etc if you are on an A road it might not be a great deal wider or straighter than the B road but people who live out here expect to be able to use it in reasonable safety and not be put at risk in dangerous parts of it by a bunch of speeding selfish drivers who should grow up and share the road with others.

etc What a [rude word removed]! Its people like him that make living in the country difficult and dangerous.

[EdinburghFixed]

people who live out here expect to be able to use it at a reasonable speed and not be held up in dangerous parts of it by a bunch of selfish cyclists who should be using the cycle track where they can and quiet back roads the rest of the time

Fortunately, we live in an enlightened nation with a road network paid for by everyone, that everyone can use!

The cyclists might well say, they expect to be able to use the road and not be put at risk in dangerous parts of it by a bunch of selfish drivers trying dangerous overtakes for the sake of a few moments delay. On a Sunday too!

I drive that road a lot and it's not great for overtaking - it seems to me that since you would have needed to drive in the oncoming lane anyway, it doesn't make much difference that the cyclists were abreast rather than line astern.

(Either there's oncoming traffic, or there isn't.)

Many drivers would have tried to squeeze past if the cyclists were in line, even though that could have caused fatalities if an oncoming car forced them to swerve back in. Perhaps these riders were deliberately trying to prevent drivers less prudent than yourself from doing a dangerous overtake? Especially given the treacherous driving conditions!

As you say you are a long distance rider you must be experienced in the need to control dangerous driving through a positive road position.

Horns don't hurt - on balance I'd rather hold up a massive queue than be dead.

But, I am surprised the cyclists moved so much that you had to swerve (while simultaneously jamming on your horn, good reflexes). If you used the oncoming lane, there should have been plenty of room for them to do as they pleased right up to the white line and that is poor form if they made it impossible for you to pass in the other lane!!

Confrontations like this "he said, she said" are one reason why so many cyclists are buying video cameras.

[james01]

[I drive that road a lot and it's not great for overtaking - it seems to me that since you would have needed to drive in the oncoming lane anyway, it doesn't make much difference that the cyclists were abreast rather than line astern.

(Either there's oncoming traffic, or there isn't.)

Many drivers would have tried to squeeze past if the cyclists were in line, even though that could have caused fatalities if an oncoming car forced them to swerve back in. Perhaps these riders were deliberately trying to prevent drivers less prudent than yourself from doing a dangerous overtake? .

Well put. This is simple logic which so many motorists (even ones who cycle a bit) just don't seem to get.
On the subject of using purpose built roadside cycle tracks, may I suggest that any motorist who objects to cyclists using the road when a track is available should consider what it would be like to be banned from driving his car on roads where a later purpose-built by-pass or motorway is available.

Later edit: I'd like to say that we shouldn't discourage anti-cyclist posts such as this from Datalead, it's actually quite rare on this forum; it's perfectly reasonable that we should listen to viewpoints from other road users, and there's no harm in calm debate.

[EdinburghFixed]

It's not even 'anti-cycling', I don't think.

99% of the time people genuinely don't understand what's going on, or they can't see past a few seconds inconvenience to the common sense answer.

The original post by Datalead is a great example of this. Maybe the cyclists were deliberately holding up traffic for a giggle, but it seems unlikely - would you bother? I have better things to do with my time than punch drivers in laybys!

However if you read between the lines it *could* be a drivers' perspective of textbook defensive cycling, right out of the handbook.

Everybody understands the 'body language' of driving, but few drivers seem to understand the cycling equivalents.

[glueman]

If you really want to annoy a group of cyclists stay on their tail indefinitely, I know it winds the hell out of me! Mostly occurs when I'm on the kiddieback tandem and 'mature' drivers treat us as some kind of mobile novelty and hold back to watch how it all works. You can practically hear them saying 'Look Mabel, that chain attaches to that bit and when his legs go round so do his and the brakes goes here and.....' meanwhile I'm trying to decend a steep hill with a hatchback 6 feet from my tail.
Many's the time I've pulled into a layby with an almost stationary car behind whose occupants disappointment is palpable that the show is over.

Yep, try not overtaking even when they wave you past to make the club run twitchy.

[Gisen]

The original poster also seems to feel that if there is a risk of cars approaching too quickly from behind then the cyclist should let cars get past so that the cars aren't at risk. If that were me I think I'd rather have cars behind me!

[RobinSmith]

There is a wider point here that is being lost in the (red) mist. Cyclists are clearly not using the separate cycleway on this rural road. Why? In my experience such paths are overgrown with bushes, have poor surfaces relative to the main road, and often have gates/steps/other hazards not conducive to riding a road bike. If the money spent on these separate cycle paths was used to widen the road and incorporate an integral cycle lane, I suggest everyone (motorists and cyclists) would be happier.

[EdinburghFixed]

If the money spent on these separate cycle paths was used to widen the road and incorporate an integral cycle lane, I suggest everyone (motorists and cyclists) would be happier.

The effect of a cycle lane would be to encourage riders to tuck in towards the gutter, reducing sight lines around junctions and making it easier and more tempting for motorists to 'have a shot' at overtaking, irrespective of the traffic and road layout.

So at least half of what you say is true!

[dodger]

As a cyclist I find horse riders a pain in the a** when on cycle paths, especially when they are riding alongside each other. However, I try to be courteous, warn them of my approach and give them time to move over. What I really dislike is the uncertainty caused by inexperienced or inept horse riders who shouldn't be around other path users. No doubt the same is true for inexperienced cyclists and other road users.
Obviously horse riders want to enjoy the companionship of riding together, just as cyclists do AND they are taught that it's safest to ride 2 abreast on a road because it prevents motorists from trying to race by in inadequate space. This might be the reasoning of the cyclists in this case. We all know that awful moment when something brushes past us at speed and/or cuts back in too quickly. Often, the only way to be sure this doesn't happen (so much) is to ride together so that vehicles can only pass where it's safe. So Datalead, I know it can be frustrating to be caught up, but it may be the only safe way to tackle this bit of road and it's true that cycle paths are often only third rate surfaces and totally unattractive to many, particularly those with road bikes.