I (reluctantly) went to 9 speed for my new bike (1998) and still have the others on 7 and 8 speed (thank goodness for ebay - still a source of 5mm pitch freewheels and so-on). I thought 10 speed was a naff idea, and the early reliability problems with Campag's 10 speed chain reinforced this view, and I was disappointed when Shimano (against earlier assurances) went the same way.
Now 11 speed? I think Campag have confused cycle equipment with disposable razors, and when you think what lousy designs the Ultratorque chainsets and freehubs are, then, can you take them seriously anymore? (BY the way, the new Super Record stuff looks pretty dreadful, too).
Now, am I being too curmudgeonly or has the industry gone mad? For the Record -as it were- I have Record (8) on 2 bikes - polished alloy and all that sort of old-school stuff, and it is excellent kit. But it seems good engineering no longer sells cycle equipment. Anyone care to comment?
Is 11 speed a good idea?
When everyone has 10 speed, then you need 11 speed to be better than the rest 
Marketing more than engineering, I would say.
Five was enough but 6 is better.
Six is enough but 7 is better
seven is enough but 8 is better etc. etc.
If you want them, buy them. Personally I think 8 is reaching the limit.
I have an old BMW motorbike. They were made with a perfectly suited 4 speed gearbox. The Japanese arrived with 5 speed gearboxes, so BMW had to match that. I often changed 2 gears at once as they were too close.
Marketing more than engineering, I would say.
Five was enough but 6 is better.
Six is enough but 7 is better
seven is enough but 8 is better etc. etc.
If you want them, buy them. Personally I think 8 is reaching the limit.
I have an old BMW motorbike. They were made with a perfectly suited 4 speed gearbox. The Japanese arrived with 5 speed gearboxes, so BMW had to match that. I often changed 2 gears at once as they were too close.
Yma o Hyd
Must admit, I prefer the seven speed setup on my mid 90's dawes edge to the eight on my modern Marin, it just seems to shift more slickly.
I personally don't see more gears as much of an advantage if the range of gearing doesn't change, it's just more aggro keeping them set up sweetly.
I also own a 1953 Hobbs of Barbican road bike with a three speed sturmey archer and it's a joy only having three speeds to choose from. No more constant gear changing to be in the "correct" gear, I'm never in the "correct" gear...
I personally don't see more gears as much of an advantage if the range of gearing doesn't change, it's just more aggro keeping them set up sweetly.
I also own a 1953 Hobbs of Barbican road bike with a three speed sturmey archer and it's a joy only having three speeds to choose from. No more constant gear changing to be in the "correct" gear, I'm never in the "correct" gear...
I bought a 10 speed record group set when they first came out and have had absolutely no problems at all with it - it's superb kit and I expect to be riding it for a long time yet. It's even better now I can fit new chains myself without using a special tool.
As for 11, if it's as good as my 10 speed has been I'd have no hesitation using it - I love having a wide range of closely spaced gears.
Most of the guys I ride with use ultra torque and report no problems - and they're lighter + more rigid so what's not to like?
I think you're being curmudgeonly. In the 25 years since I first joined a club, bike equipment has improved out of all recognition - long may it continue.
Having said that I ride a fixed in winter and my tourer is 8 speed....
As for 11, if it's as good as my 10 speed has been I'd have no hesitation using it - I love having a wide range of closely spaced gears.
Most of the guys I ride with use ultra torque and report no problems - and they're lighter + more rigid so what's not to like?
I think you're being curmudgeonly. In the 25 years since I first joined a club, bike equipment has improved out of all recognition - long may it continue.
Having said that I ride a fixed in winter and my tourer is 8 speed....
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bretonbikes
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I eventually went to 9sp from a 5, then a 6 and then a 7sp freewheel.
9sp Campag Ergo was fantastic! I couldn't envisage anything better!
Then I upgraded to 10sp.
WOW !!!!!!!!
The difference was immense. The 10sp chain and sprockets work so smoothly and quietly, you have to watch and listen to feel the quality. Anyone that hasn't tried it cannot even think about commenting on it. My 10sp changes smoothly and easily and quietly, almost like a CVT gearbox. I have a gear for every occasion, easily selected and quietly engaged with no fuss or worry, and ALL ratios are available - even cross-chaining without complaint.
Whether there's anything better, I don't know. All I know, is that mine is wonderful.
I have no doubt that 11sp Campag will be even better, but at present I will keep what I've got:
Chorus Triple Chainset
Centaur 10sp 13-29 cassette
Chorus rear mech
Comp front mech
Chorus Ergos
9sp Campag Ergo was fantastic! I couldn't envisage anything better!
Then I upgraded to 10sp.
WOW !!!!!!!!
The difference was immense. The 10sp chain and sprockets work so smoothly and quietly, you have to watch and listen to feel the quality. Anyone that hasn't tried it cannot even think about commenting on it. My 10sp changes smoothly and easily and quietly, almost like a CVT gearbox. I have a gear for every occasion, easily selected and quietly engaged with no fuss or worry, and ALL ratios are available - even cross-chaining without complaint.
Whether there's anything better, I don't know. All I know, is that mine is wonderful.
I have no doubt that 11sp Campag will be even better, but at present I will keep what I've got:
Chorus Triple Chainset
Centaur 10sp 13-29 cassette
Chorus rear mech
Comp front mech
Chorus Ergos
Mick F. Cornwall
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bretonbikes
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Mick F wrote:I eventually went to 9sp from a 5, then a 6 and then a 7sp freewheel.
9sp Campag Ergo was fantastic! I couldn't envisage anything better!
Then I upgraded to 10sp.
WOW !!!!!!!!
The difference was immense. The 10sp chain and sprockets work so smoothly and quietly, you have to watch and listen to feel the quality. Anyone that hasn't tried it cannot even think about commenting on it. My 10sp changes smoothly and easily and quietly, almost like a CVT gearbox. I have a gear for every occasion, easily selected and quietly engaged with no fuss or worry, and ALL ratios are available - even cross-chaining without complaint.
Whether there's anything better, I don't know. All I know, is that mine is wonderful.
I have no doubt that 11sp Campag will be even better, but at present I will keep what I've got:
Chorus Triple Chainset
Centaur 10sp 13-29 cassette
Chorus rear mech
Comp front mech
Chorus Ergos
I'm sure it works beautifully, but for the touring cyclist it offers :- very heavy rear wheel dish leading to spoke breakages (this the biggest disadvantage), longer unsupported axle (depending on design - not seen the latest campy but they used to be poor compared to shimano), faster wearing sprockets chainsets and chains, ghost changes under load unless you have a very stiff frame, more critical adjustment (important on a muddy tourer after a few weeks on tour and all being equal - greater weight.
A half step triple will give the same, or closer ratios (though now hard to buy/operate).
For a time triallist or serious speed merchant it'll be worth it, but on a loaded touring bike the disadvantages outweigh the advantages (IMHO), but of course each to their own - what bothers me is that we don't get the choice. Try buying a quality 7 speed now...
As far as I'm concerned, 11 gears just means more to go wrong, and more to buy. I can't see an advantage over my 7 speed cassettes, and I'm pretty sure that's not such of of an improvement over 5.
If you want to chase technology, fine. But you're always going to be poor, and you're probably not going to go faster, or enjoy cycling more.
This stuff might be better if you're an absolutely elite rider, but if you are someone else will pay for it for you.
If you want to chase technology, fine. But you're always going to be poor, and you're probably not going to go faster, or enjoy cycling more.
This stuff might be better if you're an absolutely elite rider, but if you are someone else will pay for it for you.
bretonbikes.com wrote:I'm sure it works beautifully but for the touring cyclist it offers :- very heavy rear wheel dish leading to spoke breakages
No, it doesn't. Not if the wheel is built properly.
longer unsupported axle (depending on design - not seen the latest campy but they used to be poor compared to shimano)
Agree
faster wearing sprockets chainsets and chains
NO! Maintain the stuff properly, and it will last for years!
, ghost changes under load unless you have a very stiff frame
No idea, never happens to me!
more critical adjustment (important on a muddy tourer after a few weeks on tour and all being equal - greater weight.
Possibly, but not a problem when it's set up. No further adjustment necessary providing you don't fiddle with it.
Mick F. Cornwall
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bretonbikes
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Mick F wrote:bretonbikes.com wrote:I'm sure it works beautifully but for the touring cyclist it offers :- very heavy rear wheel dish leading to spoke breakages
No, it doesn't. Not if the wheel is built properly.
Sorry but it does regardless of who builds it - it's basic engineering, the spokes on the freewheel side are twice as tight as on a 7-speed on a 135 - that stress counts no matter how good the wheel builder.faster wearing sprockets chainsets and chains
NO! Maintain the stuff properly, and it will last for years!
Again it's just basic engineering, you've a narrower chain on narrower sprockets with much higher loading at the contact points and therefore inevitably higher wear. Oiling and cleaning regularly helps of course but you can't defy physics., ghost changes under load unless you have a very stiff frame
No idea, never happens to me!
It's one reason why bike frames have become much stiffer over recent years, at the cost of a harsher ride. My old Bob Jackson 653 touring frame will ghost change an 8 speed if provoked (like when pulling a baby trailer), but it rides like silk.more critical adjustment (important on a muddy tourer after a few weeks on tour and all being equal - greater weight.
Possibly, but not a problem when it's set up. No further adjustment necessary providing you don't fiddle with it.
Not my experience on a poor weather tour - cables get sticky, grit in derailleurs etc, the very long cable runs needed by Campy changers doesn't help here either, nor the difficulty in cleaning them. Again the loaded bike falls over an the rear derailler gets a bit bent - with no friction options you're stuffed...
But yes they are wonderful for day ride, and commuting and racing, but I just don't see any advantage and a lot of disadvantages on a proper tour.
Surely this is a classic case of horses for courses. 10 and 11 sprocket set ups are designed for high speed, light weight riding of highly maintained bicycles. If you're touring you want to focus more on reliability, long lasting kit and lower levels maintenance. So there is no definitive correct answer to the original question. It depends what you're doing. People's replies seem to demonstrate that quite well.
pherron wrote:Surely this is a classic case of horses for courses. 10 and 11 sprocket set ups are designed for high speed, light weight riding of highly maintained bicycles. If you're touring you want to focus more on reliability, long lasting kit and lower levels maintenance. So there is no definitive correct answer to the original question. It depends what you're doing. People's replies seem to demonstrate that quite well.
The problem is that the market is all for the race kit even if it isnt suitable for the people buying it and the ability to buy suitable touring kit is being lost. You can just about still get 8speed cassettes but there arn't many index/friction levers left around - and they only stay on the market for TT so how long before they go to 10/11. I've not seen a 7 speed bar end lever in ages. I use downtube levers (I just prefer them for touring) and I can't imagine that I'll still be able to get them when my present ones give out (of course I don't think they will give out for a long time yet!)
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bretonbikes
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zenzinnia wrote:pherron wrote:Surely this is a classic case of horses for courses. 10 and 11 sprocket set ups are designed for high speed, light weight riding of highly maintained bicycles. If you're touring you want to focus more on reliability, long lasting kit and lower levels maintenance. So there is no definitive correct answer to the original question. It depends what you're doing. People's replies seem to demonstrate that quite well.
The problem is that the market is all for the race kit even if it isnt suitable for the people buying it and the ability to buy suitable touring kit is being lost. You can just about still get 8speed cassettes but there arn't many index/friction levers left around - and they only stay on the market for TT so how long before they go to 10/11. I've not seen a 7 speed bar end lever in ages. I use downtube levers (I just prefer them for touring) and I can't imagine that I'll still be able to get them when my present ones give out (of course I don't think they will give out for a long time yet!)
100% Every time I see some innovation like 11 speed I dispair because I know that it means that something more practical will be lost in the process so we no longer have the choice. In my opinion gearsets hit a high in about 1990 with the 7-speed XT kit - bloody lovely, (don't get me started on those brilliant thumbshifters) and now there is nothing like it on the market. Why? Because the industry is driven by numbers - more is better.
The bike industry generally has always been inclined to give us bikes that sold on fashion and hype rather than what we actually needed. When I was a kid the industry gave us 10 speed 'racers' in gas pipe tubing weighing 40 lbs and with the same gear ratios as Eddy Merx used in the TDF. That's like gearing an 850 mini to the same maximum as a F1 car but that's what the market wanted. It's a wonder any of us carried on with the sport...
Oops - hobby horse...