First Wheel Building Experience

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billynibbles
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Location: Hounslow (to where the population of Southall drives every day with no apparent regard for cyclists)

Re: First Wheel Building Experience

Postby billynibbles » 18 Sep 2012, 8:40am

I'll come clean.

My first 'how difficult can it be?' attempt to rebuild a wheel from scratch using a new rim and spokes, the previous one being buckled beyond recognition actually went 'quite well'. The bike in question was one of my employer's pool bikes for adult training and had been rammed side-on by someone who hadn't done 'Lesson 2 - The Use of The Brakes' yet!

In steps muggins, saying 'don't write it off, I'll fix it'. It helped that Halfords sold me a whole new 700c wheel for a tenner from a badly damaged 'kit bike' that had quite literally fallen off the back of a truck. I couldn't use it directly as the bike under repair had Nexus hub brakes and so I set about the rebuild.

This went especially well considering my 'jig' consisted of laying the whole thing out on the patio table with the umbrella removed, the hole down the centre making a great resting place for the axle end! I even managed to get the whole thing pretty near a perfect circle and relatively wobble free without much extra truing.

There was just one problem. The spokes either side of the valve hole converged, making it impossible to inflate the tyre! Never, mind, I needed the practice of taking it apart and doing it right the second time!
National Standard Cycling Instructor. Brompton 16" folder, Dahon Matrix 26" folder, Ridgeback 700C Hybrid, Moulton De-Luxe 'doer-upper' project

rich100
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Re: First Wheel Building Experience

Postby rich100 » 18 Sep 2012, 3:43pm

Brucey wrote:
rich100 wrote:Is that strained squeeky noise I hear when tightening the nipples the spokes twisting? or is that normal when its getting tight?
.... What happens if the thread runs out? ..... Is this perhaps the cause of the noise I mention above?


you can sometimes get a noise between the nipple and the rim, but if a (lubricated) nipple makes a squeaking sound on a spoke thread and the spoke is poking out of the top of the nipple, you likely have your answer, you have indeed run out of thread.

Both spokes and nipple vary somewhat, but most combinations allow the spoke to protrude by about 1mm and some up to ~3mm. If in doubt, check how far you can screw a similar nipple onto a similar spare spoke.

The noise BTW is probably made at least in part by 'deformation twinning' in the brass. Brass nuts on steel bolts often 'cry out' when overtightened. Other metals also undergo strain-induced phase transformations, hence 'Tin Cry' amongst other things.

cheers


HHmm thanks Brucey, I wonder if I should reorder more spokes or just ride them and see how it goes, would they be much weaker or even damaged by going too far?

ps... each spoke end was dipped in grease so should have plenty on them

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531colin
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Re: First Wheel Building Experience

Postby 531colin » 18 Sep 2012, 8:29pm

105 and 150 kgf........
I have never seen anything even close to that tension..I don't think my hands were ever strong enough to get up to that tight. Snypers I build to 120/80 kgf...
For Sapim Strongs, 120kgf reads 25 on a Park tension gauge, as the bit you are gauging is 2mm.

The nipples will be squealing like stuck pigs long before 130kgf, even if you lube between the nipple and the rim....I do that everywhere except the NDS spokes.
You need to stress relieve before the spokes are at full tension, pushing down on the rim is just stressing the wheel to settle it. http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=49702&hilit=spokes&start=30

Jezrant
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Re: First Wheel Building Experience

Postby Jezrant » 18 Sep 2012, 11:46pm

That's interesting. I've a rear wheel that was built by a former of colleague of yours that's 153 kgf on the D.S. I couldn't believe it either. Way over Exal's recommendations. Unless I'm reading the Park chart wrong.

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531colin
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Re: First Wheel Building Experience

Postby 531colin » 19 Sep 2012, 4:07pm

"Songsforpolarbears" and "Jezrant"............
Just curiosity.....what tension readings do you get for any other wheels you have in use?
Interesting thread here http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=54115&hilit=+park

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Mick F
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Re: First Wheel Building Experience

Postby Mick F » 19 Sep 2012, 4:21pm

Colin,
What was the upshot of the comparison test between the two gauges?
Mick F. Cornwall

Jezrant
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Re: First Wheel Building Experience

Postby Jezrant » 19 Sep 2012, 4:53pm

531colin wrote:"Songsforpolarbears" and "Jezrant"............
Just curiosity.....what tension readings do you get for any other wheels you have in use?
Interesting thread here http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=54115&hilit=+park


surprisingly low on a couple of others regularly in use, but higher on another I'm still working on (all three with 1.8/2.0mm both sides)
105kgf DS rear wheel no. 2
117kgf DS rear wheel no. 3
131kgf DS rear wheel no. 4 (work in progress)

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531colin
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Re: First Wheel Building Experience

Postby 531colin » 19 Sep 2012, 8:20pm

Mick F wrote:Colin,
What was the upshot of the comparison test between the two gauges?


In the old thread I linked.......
All the wheelbuilders at Spa had our own gauges, there was (at least) one in the shop in daily use, and a new gauge kept in the shop as a reference. All "our" gauges were consistent within reasonable limits. Compared to ours, his gauge was reading "high".

Jezrant
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Re: First Wheel Building Experience

Postby Jezrant » 19 Sep 2012, 11:07pm

Given I get significantly lower (and more normal) readings on three other wheels, that suggests my gauge probably isn’t wildly off.
It occurred to me that perhaps the gauge used by the person who built the wheel was way off itself, or maybe he misread the Park chart himself, or got mixed up between 2.3mm and 2.0mm, or maybe he just likes building wheels with very high spoke tension. Frankly, I wouldn’t have bothered checking the tension if the wheel hadn’t gone a couple of mm out of true within the first 100km. It seems to have settled down with this 2mm blip for now, but I’m not thrilled about the 153kgf. Can’t decide if I should just loosen the spokes myself to get the tension on the DS down to Exal’s recommendation of 130kgf or take it back to its maker and hope for the best or just leave it alone.

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531colin
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Re: First Wheel Building Experience

Postby 531colin » 20 Sep 2012, 7:30am

If the wheel has gone off by 2mm and you're concerned about the tension surely the thing to do is to take it back to the wheelbuilder to be trued up, and at the same time compare tension gauge readings?

Jezrant
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Re: First Wheel Building Experience

Postby Jezrant » 20 Sep 2012, 12:17pm

531colin wrote:If the wheel has gone off by 2mm and you're concerned about the tension surely the thing to do is to take it back to the wheelbuilder to be trued up, and at the same time compare tension gauge readings?


Oh dear, do I have to?

Thing is, I went down to Woodrup’s this morning to pick up my fork after it had a set of low-rider bosses brazed on, and their wheelbuilder kindly offered to check both my Park gauge and the wheel with their DT tension meter. I believe the DT tool is considered to be fairly accurate.

So, are you seated comfortably? There’s nothing wrong with my cheapo Parko-o-meter. If anything, I was too conservative with my figures. The tension of the drive spokes is 183kgf (1800Nm)! :shock:

I suppose it’s fitting that this has come out on the DIY wheelbuilding thread.

Brucey
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Re: First Wheel Building Experience

Postby Brucey » 20 Sep 2012, 12:23pm

I'm not a habitual tension gauge user, but 183kgf...???? now that is quite a lot....

:shock:

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jezrant
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Re: First Wheel Building Experience

Postby Jezrant » 20 Sep 2012, 12:33pm

No, neither am I, but I thought I'd check after the wheel started to come untrue. I've built and rebuilt a few wheels years over the years, but occasionally I'm happy to pay someone who does it for a living to do it for me. It takes me ages to do it right, but I guess the moral of the story is if you want it done right, do it yourself.

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breakwellmz
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Re: First Wheel Building Experience

Postby breakwellmz » 20 Sep 2012, 5:18pm

Brucey wrote:I'm not a habitual tension gauge user, but 183kgf...???? now that is quite a lot....

:shock:

cheers


Won`t it IMPLODE ENORMOUSLY at some point,and act like a black hole,sucking in everything around it?

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Ash28
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Re: First Wheel Building Experience

Postby Ash28 » 20 Sep 2012, 9:46pm

Here is my second set

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