I'll venture that even in the days when it was more common, this was nothing more than a bit of a fad. I'd line this up with large flange hubs and I've seen some pretty large ones in my time. My own impression of spokes is that like so much stuff from the good ol' days, most spokes used to be pretty poor compared with modern stuff.
I think the questions must be what is it supposed to achieve and how does it do it?
tied and soldered spokes
Neil Fat Man On A Bike wrote:I had tied and soldered spokes on my Track bike.
At one time it was the norm for sprinters.
Yes, that's my understanding. Makes the wheel more rigid but means it has less give. Therefore potentially good for track sprinting (no bumps, maximum acceleration), not so hot for rough roads with heavy loads.
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rogerzilla
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hubgearfreak
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rogerzilla wrote:It's an affectation these days. As thirdcrank says, spokes were a bit dodgy in the past.
are you (and presumably TC) suggesting that it did some good when spokes were inconsistent? because if it used to do some good to make a stronger wheel, then there's no reason that it wouldn't still do, whether it was necessary or not with better spokes is another matter.
JB says it does nothing.
It makes no difference. Brandt tried it, measuring all possible deflections of the rim & spokes under load, both tied and untied.
I had an untied pair of wheels, first I ever built. The spokes outlasted 3 pairs of rims and the ballraces of a pair of Campag Tipo hubs. That's well over 60,000 miles (yes I counted the noughts right). It's just extra weight to lug around.
I had an untied pair of wheels, first I ever built. The spokes outlasted 3 pairs of rims and the ballraces of a pair of Campag Tipo hubs. That's well over 60,000 miles (yes I counted the noughts right). It's just extra weight to lug around.
If at first you don't succeed - cheat!!
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thirdcrank
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I'm not saying it made up for poor spoke quality - I suppose I just chucked that in.
What I cannot understand with tying and soldering is that the whole point of a bike type spoke, as I understand it, is to suspend the weight of the bike along with the other spokes and to transmit the drive at the back. I just can't see how tying and soldering helps that. If it does anything, which I doubt, it must be to shorten what I might describe as the effective length of the spoke. It was that that made me think about large flange hubs. (And I suppose it was large flange hubs that made me think of rustless spokes.)
In use, how much do spokes move, relative to each other, at the crossing points? Very little if at all, I suspect. On the other hand, if this does work, why not increase the effect by a wire running round them all nearer the rim?
If somebody could point to what it does and how it does it, I'd like to think I've an open mind. Incidentally, I can't say I've ever heard of even disc wheels (the ultimate in large flange hubs) as being ideal because of their undoubted rigidity, rather than their aerodynamic properties.
What I cannot understand with tying and soldering is that the whole point of a bike type spoke, as I understand it, is to suspend the weight of the bike along with the other spokes and to transmit the drive at the back. I just can't see how tying and soldering helps that. If it does anything, which I doubt, it must be to shorten what I might describe as the effective length of the spoke. It was that that made me think about large flange hubs. (And I suppose it was large flange hubs that made me think of rustless spokes.)
In use, how much do spokes move, relative to each other, at the crossing points? Very little if at all, I suspect. On the other hand, if this does work, why not increase the effect by a wire running round them all nearer the rim?
If somebody could point to what it does and how it does it, I'd like to think I've an open mind. Incidentally, I can't say I've ever heard of even disc wheels (the ultimate in large flange hubs) as being ideal because of their undoubted rigidity, rather than their aerodynamic properties.
A spoked wheel is a masterpiece of engineering. Light weight combined with strength for the purpose.
It depends on parts not moving much. The spokes bear on and support each other where they cross. You don't want the spokes moving at the hub (or rim) either.
In theory, then, tying and soldering increases the rigidity of the wheel, for negligible extra weight, by helping the spokes to support each other. That should be a good thing for track sprinting, as I said, but not necessarily for the resilience needed in a touring wheel, which should be comfortable and cope with weights and road shocks.
I wouldn't dispute with such an authority as Jobst Brandt though on whether it actually makes a difference in practice.
It depends on parts not moving much. The spokes bear on and support each other where they cross. You don't want the spokes moving at the hub (or rim) either.
In theory, then, tying and soldering increases the rigidity of the wheel, for negligible extra weight, by helping the spokes to support each other. That should be a good thing for track sprinting, as I said, but not necessarily for the resilience needed in a touring wheel, which should be comfortable and cope with weights and road shocks.
I wouldn't dispute with such an authority as Jobst Brandt though on whether it actually makes a difference in practice.
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stewartpratt
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hubgearfreak
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thirdcrank wrote:I'm not saying it made up for poor spoke quality - I suppose I just chucked that in.
If somebody could point to what it does and how it does it, I'd like to think I've an open mind..
so poor spokes were a red herring then?
i'd also like to think i've got an open mind, so i'm waiting for some evidence (none anecdotal)
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stewartpratt
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peter236uk
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re
Guys
All I can say is that I have had many bikes that have had the odd buckle either a road or mountain bike most have had mavic wheels.
As I said in my first post I am not a light weight ie around 18 stone ex rugby player and not that gentle on bikes.
This bike has mavic 319 wheels so ok but nothing extra special plus me and luggage at times or shopping or commute to work on rough roads and I have never had a buckle as yet and done a few thousand miles so really thats the proof in my book.
It has made the wheel set stronger and would suggest for touring bikes it would work if this is the case.
In the article it states that for the more dicerning rider it can make the ride more responcive and stiffer not sure if this is the case.
Some good articles in there as well worth a read.
All I can say is that I have had many bikes that have had the odd buckle either a road or mountain bike most have had mavic wheels.
As I said in my first post I am not a light weight ie around 18 stone ex rugby player and not that gentle on bikes.
This bike has mavic 319 wheels so ok but nothing extra special plus me and luggage at times or shopping or commute to work on rough roads and I have never had a buckle as yet and done a few thousand miles so really thats the proof in my book.
It has made the wheel set stronger and would suggest for touring bikes it would work if this is the case.
In the article it states that for the more dicerning rider it can make the ride more responcive and stiffer not sure if this is the case.
Some good articles in there as well worth a read.
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peter236uk
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- Joined: 14 Feb 2007, 1:44pm
re
How-To Tie & Solder Spokes
By Brad Quartuccio, mechanical wisdom by Scott Wickham Jr.
Tied and soldered spokes were once a final touch from the finest mechanics upon the highest quality wheels, but have for the most part faded into obscurity. Seen only rarely these days, many cyclists have never personally laid eyes upon a set of tied and soldered wheels, let alone question the history of the practice or learn to tie their own.
Cycling lore has it that wheels can feel stiffer and more responsive to the discerning rider after having been tied and soldered. The explanations given vary, most culminating in an effectively shorter spoke that is less able to vibrate and move in relation to its neighbor. Attempts to quantify any structural difference between a tied and untied wheel have all come up short, with no measurable differences yet detected. History points to a possibly more practical origin; in the days of high-wheelers with longer spokes and lesser manufacturing the tie was to help prevent a broken spoke from becoming entangled.
There are adherents to each school of thought, those that swear by tied and soldered wheels and those that dismiss them as nothing but a myth. Sometimes tradition has its place no matter the empirical evidence. Tied and soldered spokes have been around forever in bicycle terms and there is no reason not to carry on the tradition; here’s one mechanic’s method of finishing his best wheelbuilds.
Materials: Besides a finely built wheel with clean spokes and a few items common to any workshop you’ll need the following: beekeeper’s wire for the tying, thin gauge rosin core solder, soldering flux, and a common propane brazing torch. It should go without saying, but you’re playing with fire and could get burned. Wear some safety glasses and proceed with caution.
By Brad Quartuccio, mechanical wisdom by Scott Wickham Jr.
Tied and soldered spokes were once a final touch from the finest mechanics upon the highest quality wheels, but have for the most part faded into obscurity. Seen only rarely these days, many cyclists have never personally laid eyes upon a set of tied and soldered wheels, let alone question the history of the practice or learn to tie their own.
Cycling lore has it that wheels can feel stiffer and more responsive to the discerning rider after having been tied and soldered. The explanations given vary, most culminating in an effectively shorter spoke that is less able to vibrate and move in relation to its neighbor. Attempts to quantify any structural difference between a tied and untied wheel have all come up short, with no measurable differences yet detected. History points to a possibly more practical origin; in the days of high-wheelers with longer spokes and lesser manufacturing the tie was to help prevent a broken spoke from becoming entangled.
There are adherents to each school of thought, those that swear by tied and soldered wheels and those that dismiss them as nothing but a myth. Sometimes tradition has its place no matter the empirical evidence. Tied and soldered spokes have been around forever in bicycle terms and there is no reason not to carry on the tradition; here’s one mechanic’s method of finishing his best wheelbuilds.
Materials: Besides a finely built wheel with clean spokes and a few items common to any workshop you’ll need the following: beekeeper’s wire for the tying, thin gauge rosin core solder, soldering flux, and a common propane brazing torch. It should go without saying, but you’re playing with fire and could get burned. Wear some safety glasses and proceed with caution.
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stewartpratt
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- Joined: 27 Dec 2007, 5:12pm
Re: re
"Tied and soldered spokes have been around forever in bicycle terms and there is no reason not to carry on the tradition"
Well, there's weight, cost, equipment, build effort and ease of spoke replacement - but apart from those, no reason at all :)