tied and soldered spokes

[peter236uk]

Why are you talking about frames on this thread all I said was it seems to have worked for to have tied and soldered wheels.
And the simple fact is my wheels still run true and on many other bikes there have been a slight buckle for one reason or another.

See the start of the thread gents

[stewartpratt]

It's an analogy. A relevant one, at that. It's a discussion of whether aspects of manufacturing can be snake oil, insignificant or valuable. Just evolution of a topic... it's not as if anyone started mentioning helmets :)

[cpedw]

My dad's trike (I'm talking 50+ years ago) had wired & soldered rear wheels. I always presumed that this was because of the significant sideways loads on trike wheels although the front wheel was not wired.
It was certainly a pain to replace several spokes afer a companion forgot about the extra width and Ben Hur-ed into the offside rear wheel with the end of her rear axle!
Derek

[drossall]

yes there is. so can a wheel be stiffer and yet not be demonstrably stiffer?

That must be possible, yes. Say that tying the spokes made just enough difference to be demonstrable. So you tie one pair only, and that won't be demonstrable, because the difference will be much smaller. Do that eighteen times (once per pair on a 36H wheel) and you'll get a demonstrable difference made up of imperceptible ones, because we have assumed that tying all the spokes does that.

Unless of course there is a Quantum of Stiffness

[andrew_s]

Tying and soldering must make any given wheel stiffer.

Whether it makes any practical or demonstrate-able difference is the question.

Jobst Brandt reckons it doesn't make a measurable difference, having tried measuring the same wheels before and after tying & soldering.

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8c.5.html

[Mick F]

I repeat:

I still maintain that a wheel with tied and soldered spokes MUST be stiffer, even if you can't demonstrate it practically. I should be provable theoretically.

If you study and old wheel, you'll see that the spokes are slightly worn where they cross - this demonstrates that the spokes move and flex. It also shows that the wheel isn't rigid, but a flexible entity.

Seal that movement at the crosses, and you have a stiffer wheel.

It may not be perceptible, it may not be demonstrable, but it must be provable mathematically.

Am I right?

[hubgearfreak]

Say that tying the spokes made just enough difference to be demonstrable

Do that eighteen times (once per pair on a 36H wheel) and you'll get a demonstrable

1. it doesn't, so i can't

2. JB tried it, and the difference wasn't measurable.

for me, there is no difference between a difference that can't be measured and no actual difference - they're the same thing.

there are clearly people who believe in things that can't be shown to exist such as father christmas, tooth fairy, jesus and the benefits of tied and soldered spokes.
you're perfectly entitled to your views (i believe that it's been law since 1215 when written in the magna carta) but like religion we're clearly going to get nowhere.
i have an open mind, so if someone can point to a test or make one where tied wheels are shown to be stiffer (or that god exists) i'd love to see it, in the mean time some of you have your faith and others of us have our scepticism. but we're all pals

[meic]

"for me, there is no difference between a difference that can't be measured and no actual difference - they're the same thing. "

That is bad news for Heisenberg.

[drossall]

Oh, I'm not sure about that

[zoot]

one of the reasons for doing this is that in the :olden:days when I used to build wheels the quality of hubs and especially spokes were not made to todays standards so that a broken spoke ,usually a rear,would be prone to wrap itself around the wheel before you could stop,with interesting results.This doesn,t happen on a tied wheel as the tying holds the spoke in place.People then also used to have there wheels built with Chrome spokes quite often<very flash> and these were even more prone to breaking than the more common [rustless] a misnomer if ever there was one.

[pete75]

I guess the same effect could be achieved quickly and eaily using cable ties if nayone wants to try it.

[andrew_s]

You'll never get cable ties tight enough to make any difference, though they will help stop a broken spoke failing about.

In fact I reckon that this is why tying and soldering doesn't make any difference. The spokes aren't actually connected - they've just got a close-fitting wire reinforced solder collar around the crossing point.
Have you ever tried to solder something stainless? It just doesn't stick.

[pete75]

You can get get as much tension as you like on cable ties with the correct tool.
Stainless is easy enough to solder providing you use the right flux.

[PW]

I've just re-read the page from Brandt. I won't reproduce someone else's research verbatim including the weights used, but the conclusion was:-
"It is apparent from these results that tying and soldering of spokes has so little effect, if any, that it is difficult to detect even by precise measurement."

[peter236uk]

Hi to all the knockers I am almost at 4000 miles now and wheels still run true and for big guy that uses a bike for all uses including commuting the wheels still run true I think the rims will wear out before I get a buckle.
I have spent alot of money on bikes in the past and this has been the best bike by far in terms of reliablity which is my number one concern on an every day bike.
I brought this bike off ebay for £300 un branded although based on a Ridgeback panarama frame with deore kit and mavic wheels except they have been tied and soldered.
I have seen many off the peg bikes that cost hundreds of pounds more that are not as good and reliable as this so guess does this beg the question do we get ripped off to some extent by the main cycle suppliers.
I was looking at a thorn but then does it warrent a £2k price tag !!!
I for one will stand by the tied and spokes on my bike as its the only bike I have ever owned where the wheels have remained true to this day as I said 4 years old now and almost 4000 miles.