Which frame material?

[MichaelM]

Well, that link did not work, just copy and paste it.

[reohn2]

Re tandems: a whole different set of design parameters there. Wasn't really including those in any comments

In that case I wouldn't describe my Thorn Audax MK3,or my Dawes Galaxy "wallowy", again,stiff, comfortable,complient,yes,but not "wallowy",I have to say my experience of Alloy frames is very limited though.
Tyres can,as has already been said,make a huge difference to ride quality/comfort,why on earth anyone unless they're racing, rides anything less than 25mm tyres on our roads is beyond me.
28mm Gators are a joy to ride,I only wish Continental would make a 32mm version!
Even so the constant buzz through the contact points of tarred and stoned roads(why do they do that ?) is an ever present a nuisance made worse by the fact that in their wisdom this tarring and stoning is done over potholes without repairing the hole first therebye camoflaging them to all but knowing local riders and we wonder why people ride full sus supermarket clunkers!!!

[random37]

Also, I think you've got to ask yourself, unless you're at a very, very good standard and without an ounce of overweightness yourself, is the weight advantage worth chasing the technology? The heavier you are, the less performance benefit a weight saving from the bike will give you.

If you were the kind of rider who would see the benefit from weight saving beyond a good quality, ordinary steel bike, you'd probably have a sponsor paying for your bikes, and a team of mechanics following you in a van with an identical bike in case yours went wrong.

Your choice though, of course. It's nice to have nice things, isn't it?

[stewartpratt]

why on earth anyone unless they're racing, rides anything less than 25mm tyres on our roads is beyond me. 28mm Gators are a joy to ride

Heh. I love 23mm tyres and for unladen road riding wouldn't want anything larger - the stock 23s that came on both my CAAD9 and my Langster (the latter being chunky reinforced ones) are much, much nicer than the 28-32mm tyres I've used on the steel bikes - the 28mm Gatorskins weren't too bad; still quite fast, but less comfortable, and terrifying in the wet. The narrower tyres give a smoother and faster ride; with a fatter tyre, bringing it down to a pressure that gives equivalent comfort means it drags like hell and is scary in corners.

IME; YMM(andclearlydoes)V

[Mick F]

Me too with 23mm.
20mm is even better, but I was suffering with pinch-punctures. Hopefully the 23s will be ok.

[reohn2]

why on earth anyone unless they're racing, rides anything less than 25mm tyres on our roads is beyond me. 28mm Gators are a joy to ride

Heh. I love 23mm tyres and for unladen road riding wouldn't want anything larger - the stock 23s that came on both my CAAD9 and my Langster (the latter being chunky reinforced ones) are much, much nicer than the 28-32mm tyres I've used on the steel bikes - the 28mm Gatorskins weren't too bad; still quite fast, but less comfortable, and terrifying in the wet. The narrower tyres give a smoother and faster ride; with a fatter tyre, bringing it down to a pressure that gives equivalent comfort means it drags like hell and is scary in corners.

IME; YMM(andclearlydoes)V

Can't say I agree with any of that,which just goes to show how different people are.
I find the Gators roll well,are comfy,and grippy.
I run them at 90psi and I weigh 83kgs.I average a 70/80mile ride at 15/16mph,just give you an idea of my riding style.
23mm tyres are for folks who like their eyeballs jijiggled and their fillings loosened

[Mick F]

I don't think it's different people, but different bikes and different riding styles.
My fillings don't loosen and my eyeballs don't jiggle!

Since being on this forum, I've tried to analyse how I ride. I never thought anything of it before, but when you read of other people, how they ride, what they ride, and their experiences, it's made me think about the way I ride, and "watch" myself.

I just ride naturally. I don't think about it very much at all. I have to consciously feel what I'm doing to notice anything about the way I do it.

Today, I was whizzing down a little lane. It was tarmac, but in a rough and ready sort of way. I must've been doing 20 to 30mph. I noticed that my legs were taking my weight. I was hardly touching my saddle, and my arms held gently onto the bars whilst my fingers covered the brakes. I also noticed that I was doing it without thinking. Totally natural and "organic". It reminded me of ski-ers. They bend their legs to take out the pounding from the ground. That's what I was doing.

Therefore, my teeth don't rattle and my eyes stay in their sockets!

[stewartpratt]

I run them at 90psi and I weigh 83kgs.I average a 70/80mile ride at 15/16mph,just give you an idea of my riding style.

Not totally sure of my pressure but I think I have about 80-90psi in 23mm tyres. I'm somewhat heavier, at 100kg. Similar ride length/speed.

As Mick says, being a bit loose with the bike does help - I was riding off-road long before doing much on it, which forces you to do that - and I think the reason is that by doing so over 'large scale' roughness like potholes and patchy tarmac you avoid the punture risks, and that lets you use a lower tyre pressure which is more appropriate to (ie faster and more comfortable on) the 'small scale' roughness, ie the coarse style of tarmac we usually have in Blighty.

[reohn2]

I don't think it's different people, but different bikes and different riding styles.
My fillings don't loosen and my eyeballs don't jiggle!

Since being on this forum, I've tried to analyse how I ride. I never thought anything of it before, but when you read of other people, how they ride, what they ride, and their experiences, it's made me think about the way I ride, and "watch" myself.

I just ride naturally. I don't think about it very much at all. I have to consciously feel what I'm doing to notice anything about the way I do it.

Today, I was whizzing down a little lane. It was tarmac, but in a rough and ready sort of way. I must've been doing 20 to 30mph. I noticed that my legs were taking my weight. I was hardly touching my saddle, and my arms held gently onto the bars whilst my fingers covered the brakes. I also noticed that I was doing it without thinking. Totally natural and "organic". It reminded me of ski-ers. They bend their legs to take out the pounding from the ground. That's what I was doing.

Therefore, my teeth don't rattle and my eyes stay in their sockets!

I ride like that myself,I think most experienced riders do,its as you say, natural, and the bigger air pocket in 28mm tyres means its not as rough,but when the unexpected happens that bigger air pocket is my friend,my little bit extra if you like and so the wheels don't take as much stick (I can't measure how much but its there) in turn the forks don't take as much stick,or the headset,or the bars,or me,so I enjoy my cycling more.
Its a falacy to think that narrow tyres are any faster too (other than seconds over a good few miles)for "ordinary" riders.
Many moons ago I used to ride 20mm and 23mm tyres now I prefere 28mm,for comfort without any appreciable loss in any other department.
That is my experience,you may have another experience its your choice/life, live it,but don't try and convince me of something I have found myself by my own experience.
I am always willing to learn but the 23mmv28mm tyre lesson was learned a long long time ago,along with the 53x12 gear ratio that I hardly ever used.

[reohn2]

I run them at 90psi and I weigh 83kgs.I average a 70/80mile ride at 15/16mph,just give you an idea of my riding style.

Not totally sure of my pressure but I think I have about 80-90psi in 23mm tyres. I'm somewhat heavier, at 100kg. Similar ride length/speed.

As I said before to each his own but IMHO 80-90psi and 100kgs onboard would seem somewhat under inflated for 23mm tyres.

As Mick says, being a bit loose with the bike does help - I was riding off-road long before doing much on it, which forces you to do that - and I think the reason is that by doing so over 'large scale' roughness like potholes and patchy tarmac you avoid the punture risks, and that lets you use a lower tyre pressure which is more appropriate to (ie faster and more comfortable on) the 'small scale' roughness, ie the coarse style of tarmac we usually have in Blighty.

I once had a great complement paid to me,a mate I ride with regularly said "your one of the best wheels to follow you never hit a pothole" the truth is I do occasionally but I do enjoy trying not to.
I'm as loose as a wet lettuce on the bike,unless I get carved up!

[chambo3413]

If you really want long term use you're needing Reynolds 631(replacement for 531) or similar, I have several old racing/touring bikes as early as 1949 in Reynolds 531 'butted tubes,forks and stays', I also have a 1955 James Fothergill in 531 butted that I know has 'toured' the UK and Europe extensively over many years, it still rides like a dream and retro fitted with top of the range mid 1970's components weighs in at a tad over 20lbs so it's not exactly heavy is it?
As for tyres I run Panaracer Pasela Tourguard 28mm at around 100psi, these roll great and I frequently get averages of around 14-15mph in the Peak District with them, they're ok in damp conditions also though I dont push it in the wet, I did have a problem fitting them though (rogue batch?) but others said theirs were ok.

[speedsixdave]

Today, I was whizzing down a little lane. It was tarmac, but in a rough and ready sort of way. I must've been doing 20 to 30mph. I noticed that my legs were taking my weight. I was hardly touching my saddle, and my arms held gently onto the bars whilst my fingers covered the brakes. I also noticed that I was doing it without thinking.

And that, my friends, is the Moulton advantage. You can stay sitting down, and not waste your energy supporting your weight when there's a perfectly good saddle for just that job!

[Gearoidmuar]

Comfort comes from angles of frame, saddle, bar tape, reach, tyre pressure and road surface. It has NOTHING to do with frame material. It is true that some frame materials allow the frame to flex more when you stand up, but that is not translated into a vertical shock absorbency. The bicycle triangles take care of that.
This has actually been tested by getting "Experts" to ride bikes where frames were covered so they could not see what they were riding. This was documented in one of the cycling magazines, maybe Cycling Plus years go. They could NOT tell what they were riding.
I've had a mixture of Aluminium and Steel bikes down the years. Makes no difference to me what material I ride.

[Mick F]

I don't agree.

See my post about my Floosey above. Had it been steel, the difference wouldn't have been there, in fact, I reckon it would've been quite stiff.

Vitus Dulaninox 979 is "soft" and "bendy" that is why some racers didn't like it. I felt the difference by using EXACTLY the same components as my Mercian. This included wheels, tyres, saddle, bars, the lot!

The only difference was the frame. More comfortable, lighter, and more nimble.
(Trouble is, it's a tiny bit too small for me.)

[glueman]

It's my misfortune to also disagree. A bike's resilience in one plane, with the rider sitting on a turbo trainer for instance, will not reveal it's characteristics, admittedly. Fortunately bikes are not ridden like that, they are honked up climbs, thrown around downhill hairpins and flicked through traffic. In those situations the rider will feel the difference between frame materials.

As a rule large, heavy riders will appreciate oversized tubing and block section frames more than lightweights. I prefer steel for it's longevity (if treated properly), the warning signs of failure and it's capacity for adaptation while being aware there is no best, that depends on the rider, his style of riding and his pockets. That's not to say a rider will not notice differences in materials, as well as angles, tyres, etc., because in my experience they are apparent.