Cycling UK Forum

I agree with Ru88el. Well said.

For the record, I gave up motorised transport in favour of cycling 15 years ago. I thought if I needed a car I would just hire one but it hasn't happened yet.
I am not at all convinced that climate change is affected by motor cars or human behaviour and I am dissapointed that the CTC decided to adopt a political stand on the environment as it does not represent my personal viewpoint.

There are many reasons that people enjoy cycling but I hate the assumptions that are made about me because I am in a tiny minority of people who cycle commute in my area. The assumptions being: a) can't afford a car b) can't drive c) lost my licence. and d) the most popular- Greenpeace supporter (No I am not!!!). And if Tony Blair had got his way with the confiscation of driving licences for vandalism, violence and other non-traffic related crime, there would be another possible assumption made about me.

I really don't like cycling being related to anything trendy, and environmentalism is trendy at the moment. Once the first global taxes are introduced and the restriction on peoples movements by plane and car come into place ,all in the name of environmentalism, it may not be so popular, especially if the scientists who don't agree with the current thinking are given a platform. If you jump on a bandwagon then you have got to take the consequences for when it crashes.

Other dangers of cycling being related directly to the green movement is that the new religion of environmentalism can become so dominating that people forget that it is ok and sensible just to cycle for the sake of it. Recently my work place was undergoing structural improvement and staff were invited to a presentation and Q&A session on the proposed changes. I asked about the possibility of introducing cycle parking facilities and the response I got was a long and detailed desctription of the organisations re-cycling policy. Bikes wern't mentioned!

What stops people from cycling rather than driving where practical (and most car journeys are under five miles) is very simple. Most people don't. Go to another European country where most people cycle and people won't need to justify why they travel by bike. It's just sensible and normal.

reohn2 wrote:

bigphil wrote:

reohn2 wrote:Bigphil
Its the being told "this is how you should be eating" rather than having the choice.
But worse than that being told this is the only acceptable way to eat as everything outside that narrow perameter is somehow wrong.
And even worse still it was,I believe,a cycling conference!

There is a big difference between giving someone food and telling them what they should be eating. I'm not vegan and have no agenda here, but vegan food seems like a good way to give people healthy food at a low cost -regardless of what the event is.

Vegan food sounds much better than your typical thoughtless buffet with generic low grade meat finger food with battery eggs sandwiches as your veggie option. However either way I would not feel the need to complain as the point is the conference - not the food.

I would feel the need to complain, the point was the conference and not the food as it was a cycling conference and not a food conference.
Vegan evangelism has no place at a cycling conference,I can't put it any clearer!

I don't disagree that vegan evangelism has no place at a cycling confrence and you make your point clearly - but you miss my point again. A menu does not necessary reflect an agenda.

If the menu was pizza would you automatically assume there was some kind of Italian agenda?

Personally I'd assume that the person who volunteered to make the food was talented at making pizza - and further more if it tasted good I'd be grateful for it. If during lunch the chef was around I'd also be happy to have a conversation about what I was eating.

That's being pedantic. Pizza can come in vegetarian, vegan, meat or evan piscaterian options.

So Ru88ell was facing vegan evangelism.

voujan wrote:I am dissapointed that the CTC decided to adopt a political stand on the environment as it does not represent my personal viewpoint.

That pretty much sums up the whole problem - political. The environment is not and has never been a political thing, it may have been hijacked by politicians - as most things are if it suits their purpose, but it isn't.

Once you associate politics with something you automatically start to alienate people, people feel compelled to join a side.
Forget the politics, a greener way of life isn't only desirable it is in fact the only way. Whilst I don't think forcing things down peoples throats is a good thing, I certainly don't believe there to be anything wrong with providing a vegan menu, it's certainly sits a lot better than hearing cycling sold on green issues followed by a roast cow menu.

Having read the replies on this thread I don't really follow why people have a problem selling cycling as green. I mean - it is isn't it? If it is then why not say so? It's only one reason to cycle so it doesn't automatically follow that it THE reason.
Or is everyone simply being suckered into picking side due to the politics of 'green'?

TheJollyJimLad wrote:That's being pedantic. Pizza can come in vegetarian, vegan, meat or evan piscaterian options.

So Ru88ell was facing vegan evangelism.

No. Vegan food does not mean vegan evangelism.

Ru88ell has already said they provided tasty food. Suitable for just about everyone and probably cooked by a volunteer so costs would be low. They could of course of got caters in but I imagine that would be more expensive. Better to focus on the conference and keeping costs low I recon.

If you have ever cooked for a large amount of people you'd know that vegan food can be very easy, cheap, suitable for all and as a bonus healthy and sustainable. It's not my favourite style of food by any means but a perfectly practicable way to feed lots of people.

Following the example I think if you went somewhere with pizza on the menu and expected pizza for vegans, meat eaters and even fish eaters - you would also need wheat free pizza as well, then very quickly the cost and effort for the catering has increased massively. Again this moves the focus from the conference to the food.

It didn't read to me like Ru88ell was knocking the food, but he reacted against veganism assuming a moral equivalence with cycling and the boundaries being blurred. I wouldn't call that evangelism - I reserve the term for people who regale me with abattoir tales while I'm enjoying a juicy steak - but I share his suspicion of the subtle and not so subtle creations of concensus such discussions promote.

Of course politiking over lunch is not illegal (yet) and I'm happy to share tales of huntin' shootin' and fishin' pleasure with those who want to bond through bikes.

kwackers wrote:

Ru88ell wrote:It's about time people realised that the best way to grow cycling is to sell it for what it is. We must keep green politics out of it. What chance is there of getting the Daily Mail reader on a bike when we're spouting this at them?

Just a couple of points.

Preaching is generally a bad thing, but when you go to these events there are always evangelists about something or other. Hence I don't go. I simply don't want people telling me why I should be cycling.

If you are going to evangelise then I don't see that keeping green politics out of it is a good thing. You've got to evangelise about something otherwise what are you selling? The green bit may not be the main point, but at least it's garnish.

Finally. Why do we want Daily Mail readers riding bikes? Personally I'd sooner they stay in their comfy cars rather than wobbling all over the road or worse trying to filter then becoming scared of the big cars and stopping in the middle blocking my path. Fewer bikes suits me fine.

So Daily Mail readers are poor cyclists then and are happier in their cars?

Very good generalisation here me-thinks.

bigphil wrote:

TheJollyJimLad wrote:That's being pedantic. Pizza can come in vegetarian, vegan, meat or evan piscaterian options.

So Ru88ell was facing vegan evangelism.

No. Vegan food does not mean vegan evangelism.

Ru88ell has already said they provided tasty food. Suitable for just about everyone and probably cooked by a volunteer so costs would be low. They could of course of got caters in but I imagine that would be more expensive. Better to focus on the conference and keeping costs low I recon.

If you have ever cooked for a large amount of people you'd know that vegan food can be very easy, cheap, suitable for all and as a bonus healthy and sustainable. It's not my favourite style of food by any means but a perfectly practicable way to feed lots of people.

Following the example I think if you went somewhere with pizza on the menu and expected pizza for vegans, meat eaters and even fish eaters - you would also need wheat free pizza as well, then very quickly the cost and effort for the catering has increased massively. Again this moves the focus from the conference to the food.

But why not provide for non vegans.

Vegans often complain if their type of food is not available and are justified in doing so in the same way that I would feel justified in compaining that there wasn't any meat dishes for me to eat.
It is just a easy to provide all types of food.

As the OP has said he didn't go to Cycling conference to have a lecture on someones point of view on veganism .

Do Vegans/veggies sound the trouser trumpet more often

johncharles wrote:

bigphil wrote:

TheJollyJimLad wrote:That's being pedantic. Pizza can come in vegetarian, vegan, meat or evan piscaterian options.

So Ru88ell was facing vegan evangelism.

No. Vegan food does not mean vegan evangelism.

Ru88ell has already said they provided tasty food. Suitable for just about everyone and probably cooked by a volunteer so costs would be low. They could of course of got caters in but I imagine that would be more expensive. Better to focus on the conference and keeping costs low I recon.

If you have ever cooked for a large amount of people you'd know that vegan food can be very easy, cheap, suitable for all and as a bonus healthy and sustainable. It's not my favourite style of food by any means but a perfectly practicable way to feed lots of people.

Following the example I think if you went somewhere with pizza on the menu and expected pizza for vegans, meat eaters and even fish eaters - you would also need wheat free pizza as well, then very quickly the cost and effort for the catering has increased massively. Again this moves the focus from the conference to the food.

But why not provide for non vegans.

They did - ru88ell already said he liked the food. I assume he was not a vegan. I don't see why a cycling conference need to supply foods for every taste / allergy / diet.

johncharles wrote:So Daily Mail readers are poor cyclists then and are happier in their cars?

Very good generalisation here me-thinks.

Who knows - I'm just continuing a theme. However it's true to say there are some generalisations that DO work for Daily Mail readers...

(Wouldn't happen to be one would you?)

Chris Boardman was in there this Sunday - dunno if he reads it too, but he wasn't too shoddy a rider....although he did manage to get run over by his own team car that time....

Si wrote:Chris Boardman was in there this Sunday - dunno if he reads it too, but he wasn't too shoddy a rider....although he did manage to get run over by his own team car that time....

Hope you got that information second hand...

well yes, despite my general abhorrence of its less tasteful tendencies, I do find some bits of it OK: sport, crosswords, Fred Basset and some of the reviews.

and the letters page is normally hilarious, but for all the wrong reasons.

Wasn't Ru88el objecting to the green eco issues?
Merely not eating meat or dairy doesn't necessarily make you a vegan,(I thought he just mentioned that the lunch was vegan?) it just cuts down your carbon footprint (unless importing all your veg from Australia no doubt)from the 'gases' produced by mass produced dairy and meat production - it's generally accepted that growing plant crops takes less resources(eco) & feeds more people than using the land for animals.

Did you say anything at the time?