Helmets
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De Rosa
Helmets
I saw a CTC spokesman on the news last night (12.09.06)saying it was safer to ride without a helmet. What a load of absolute rubbish!!!!!!!!! If I were to ride a MTB part on roads and part off over a 20 mile route how would his logic apply to that and how does it apply to children who ride in traffic free areas? His comments are misleading and a distortion of laws in other countries which can not be applied equally to the prevailing bicycle/car conflict in this country. He is living in a dream land comparing the UK to Holland. Their culture is different there and will never be like that here so to say that people should not wear helmets and ride in the middle of the road is ludicruous. How does the CTC expect to be taken seriously when it has spokesman like this 'helping' it's image. I was recently knocked off by a car (travelling towards me) and would have undoubtly suffered severe head injuries in addition to the broken shoulder I did suffer, if it were not for my helmet. I could go on. This is not helping cycling or the CTC. Perhaps the CTC would like to invite David Cameron to be it's spokesman as he seems to have a habit of riding with his helmet dangling from his handlebars. What does the CTC think of this use of a helmet?
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Simon L5
Re:Helmets
de rosa - you will find vast acres of netspace devoted to this topic, and precious little consensus. I believe that the CTC spokesman was asked to comment on a study that allegedly demonstrated that cyclists who wear helmets are at greater risk because car drivers are less cautious when passing them.
The CTC position is essentially libertarian - let people decide for themselves. I don't have a problem with this, despite my personal view that a helmet may have saved me from a serious head injury some five years ago.
The CTC position is essentially libertarian - let people decide for themselves. I don't have a problem with this, despite my personal view that a helmet may have saved me from a serious head injury some five years ago.
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thirdcrank
Re:Helmets
A point of information:
This was originated by research by Ian Walker, a 'traffic psychologist' who cycled with and without a helmet to see how closely he was overtaken. He also did part of the expriment in a wig so people might think he was a woman.
He found that on average, overtaking drivers passed him 3.3 inches closer when he was wearing a helmet. He was hit twice by overtakers when he was wearing a helmet.
He concluded that drivers assume helmeted cyclists are somehow more competent and, therefore, may safely be overtaken more closely. (I have only seen a newspaper report so I do not know how he decided it was not because they were assuned to be better protected from danger.)
And in his wig? He concluded that drivers assumed women to be less competent and so gave them more room. I wonder if drivers thought that a traffic psychologist in drag, with or without a helmet, merited a wide berth.
The moral of this story is that once again 'common sense' may be a mile wide of the mark. Mick Agar
PS Plenty of scope to repeat the research in a cape, with a primus in place, on a tandem, folder etc etc. Not to mention an electric bike. Sorrty, there i go again.
This was originated by research by Ian Walker, a 'traffic psychologist' who cycled with and without a helmet to see how closely he was overtaken. He also did part of the expriment in a wig so people might think he was a woman.
He found that on average, overtaking drivers passed him 3.3 inches closer when he was wearing a helmet. He was hit twice by overtakers when he was wearing a helmet.
He concluded that drivers assume helmeted cyclists are somehow more competent and, therefore, may safely be overtaken more closely. (I have only seen a newspaper report so I do not know how he decided it was not because they were assuned to be better protected from danger.)
And in his wig? He concluded that drivers assumed women to be less competent and so gave them more room. I wonder if drivers thought that a traffic psychologist in drag, with or without a helmet, merited a wide berth.
The moral of this story is that once again 'common sense' may be a mile wide of the mark. Mick Agar
PS Plenty of scope to repeat the research in a cape, with a primus in place, on a tandem, folder etc etc. Not to mention an electric bike. Sorrty, there i go again.
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andysdad
Re:Helmets
Another good reason for having a bell fitted to your bike.
If a car passes too close, an angry tinkle on your bell will teach them a lesson they won’t forget.
The CTC shop seems to have a serious deficiency in one essential item of safety equipment. They don’t stock blond wigs.
That reminds me of the guy who spent twenty minutes doing his hair, and then forgot to put it on.
If a car passes too close, an angry tinkle on your bell will teach them a lesson they won’t forget.
The CTC shop seems to have a serious deficiency in one essential item of safety equipment. They don’t stock blond wigs.
That reminds me of the guy who spent twenty minutes doing his hair, and then forgot to put it on.
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reohn2
Re:Helmets
re Helmet, helmetless,wig,wigless, it doesn't matter when ever I've been just missed(never been hit)by a car they always say "sorry I didn't see you"so I've taken to wearing a large yellow chicken outfit, female of course and ahelmet just in case.
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Swerve
Re:Helmets
Like everyone else, I've just had the weekly CTC e-mail and it seems that the CTC are taking Dr Walker's research at face value and using it as evidence of their position on helmets.
Regardless of the rights and wrongs of helmet use, I am absolutely disgusted that this study gets any credence, never mind the blanket coverage it's had in the media.
Dr Walker has a stated position on helmets (non-wearer, but that's not the point). Dr Walker's career is based on spotting and publishing psychological aspects of traffic movement.
Amazingly, Dr Walker did all the cycling himself.
Any GCSE science student will tell you that, particularly in the case of psychology, if the bias (unwitting or otherwise) of the experimenter is not factored out, the experiment is worthless. The procedure here is riddled with holes. It's a bad joke.
As a professional scientist, I'm not sure quite why scientists are held in such high regard by the CTC that they accept everything they are told by them. Perhaps they will now accept unquestioningly when I tell them that they have been sold a pup.
The report's conclusions may be exactly right, but if so, the means of getting to them are entirely unreliable. A retraction is in order, but not expected.
Regardless of the rights and wrongs of helmet use, I am absolutely disgusted that this study gets any credence, never mind the blanket coverage it's had in the media.
Dr Walker has a stated position on helmets (non-wearer, but that's not the point). Dr Walker's career is based on spotting and publishing psychological aspects of traffic movement.
Amazingly, Dr Walker did all the cycling himself.
Any GCSE science student will tell you that, particularly in the case of psychology, if the bias (unwitting or otherwise) of the experimenter is not factored out, the experiment is worthless. The procedure here is riddled with holes. It's a bad joke.
As a professional scientist, I'm not sure quite why scientists are held in such high regard by the CTC that they accept everything they are told by them. Perhaps they will now accept unquestioningly when I tell them that they have been sold a pup.
The report's conclusions may be exactly right, but if so, the means of getting to them are entirely unreliable. A retraction is in order, but not expected.
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thirdcrank
Re:Helmets
Swerve
I think if you read Simon L5 above you will see how the CTC came to comment on this. I think if you read the reception the research received on here, you will see that we are all 'keeping open minds' or rather, our prejudices remain unaffected by it.
I think if you read Simon L5 above you will see how the CTC came to comment on this. I think if you read the reception the research received on here, you will see that we are all 'keeping open minds' or rather, our prejudices remain unaffected by it.
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bovlomov
Re:Helmets
Even though the research confirmed all my prejudices I too was a bit suspicious about how 'scientific' it was.
But then, I thought, it makes a change. Usually it is the pro-mandatory helmet research that is incomplete and distorted.
I was in correspondence a few months ago with a scientist who admitted that a pro-helmet interpretation of his research had been added to the summary at the insistance of his sponsors. It had no scientific basis and he thought that they were (perhaps overly) concerned about public safety.
These helmet arguments have become an irrelevant sideshow in the story of cycle safety. The truth is a complicated business and, as far as I can see, there is no satisfactory research, especially that should prompt legislation.
But then, I thought, it makes a change. Usually it is the pro-mandatory helmet research that is incomplete and distorted.
I was in correspondence a few months ago with a scientist who admitted that a pro-helmet interpretation of his research had been added to the summary at the insistance of his sponsors. It had no scientific basis and he thought that they were (perhaps overly) concerned about public safety.
These helmet arguments have become an irrelevant sideshow in the story of cycle safety. The truth is a complicated business and, as far as I can see, there is no satisfactory research, especially that should prompt legislation.
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thirdcrank
Re:Helmets
One standard way of removing this sort of bias in research is the 'double blind' approach.
In this case, I understand they got a cyclist and blindfolded him. Then they blindfolded the 4x4 driver and the idea was to see how close the driver went in overtaking the cyclist in different circumstances. I understand that at that point the cyclist muttered something about having forgotten his bell and went home to deal with some unfinished business.
In this case, I understand they got a cyclist and blindfolded him. Then they blindfolded the 4x4 driver and the idea was to see how close the driver went in overtaking the cyclist in different circumstances. I understand that at that point the cyclist muttered something about having forgotten his bell and went home to deal with some unfinished business.
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Mav
Re:Helmets
I recently wrote to the CTC about the supposedly neutral position on helmet wearing; and in the latest newsnet they are pushing anti helmet propaganda again. In my view CTC is afraid of compulsion so seeks any data, however spurious, to undermine helmet wearing. It's the same with cycle paths. In case their use becomes compulsory, CTC downplays the benefits of segregation from cars etc. Why not look at how potential compulsion can be avoided rather than criticising things that many who cycle see as extremely beneficial.
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thirdcrank
Re:Helmets
The style of traffic sign for a compulsory manoeuvre is a blue disc with white emblem. There is one exception to this - the sign for 'cycle route' (including 'shared use') follows this pattern but is advisory. IMO at some stage the buffoons at the Ministry of Transport intended and may still intend to make them compulsory.
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thirdcrank
Re:Helmets
Swerve
Just another note on researcher bias. The Hawthorne effect may be relevant here and cyclists especially are aware of this (everytime some rustic type flails a hedge then doesn't bother to sweep up afterwards.)
Just another note on researcher bias. The Hawthorne effect may be relevant here and cyclists especially are aware of this (everytime some rustic type flails a hedge then doesn't bother to sweep up afterwards.)
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pwward
Re:Helmets
It should be borne in mind that Dr Walkers research is not yet published. If people want to attempt critiques of it when it is, fine and good. However having a go before it is in print seems a bit premature, as do judgements about whether or not the CTC is bias about this research.
It will be shortly published in Accident Analysis and Prevention.
It will be shortly published in Accident Analysis and Prevention.
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geta4x4
Re:Helmets
they also recommend riding 'assertively' on the road, fogetting to mention that in a conflict of interests the cyclist always gets injured. so there.
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reohn2
Re:Helmets
It seems to me the onus for safe road use is on all of us,but the shear stupidity of some road users beggers belief at times.
Whilst driving down a very busy dual carriageway road in central Manchester on Friday i was first surprised, then appalled,to see a cyclist heading staight toward me on the wrong side of the road,sounding the horn had no effect and i had to drive round him.This is not the first time i've seen/experienced such events in the city.These have involved riding though red lights and cutting accross oncoming traffic,riding diagonally across traffic lighted junctions oblivious to traffic,and riding on the pavment of course, these can be singular cyclists and groups of three or four on a couple of occasions and a wider age group than you would think (one man was in his forties i'd say).
This kind of behavior must make the none cycling motorist very angry/frustrated and produce contempt for these cyclists among the motoring community and rightly so,sprinkle in a bit of negative media coverage, the compulsory rush hour jam the "i'm paying road tax,ins,cost of petrol etc"and seeing cyclists going quicker than you are able to in heavy traffic, this contemptable thought pattern could then be carried through to include all cyclists.
The result can be disasterous,and sometimes is.
There is a contempt for the law in this country brought about by poor thinking or none at all,and poor policing due to lack of funding.Policing that deals with the symptoms and not the causes of crime, and a break down of decency and self respect.(if you can get away with it then do so attitude).
We are a society on the slide.
That is why on the road I trust no one, ride assertively,hit the side of a car with the a flat hand if it comes too close (they always go away from noise) wear a helmet (because i believe it offers at least some protection)and use a rear view mirror (so i can keep an eye on the beggers).
So there you have it the gospel acording to R2. I thank you(said like Arther Askey)
Whilst driving down a very busy dual carriageway road in central Manchester on Friday i was first surprised, then appalled,to see a cyclist heading staight toward me on the wrong side of the road,sounding the horn had no effect and i had to drive round him.This is not the first time i've seen/experienced such events in the city.These have involved riding though red lights and cutting accross oncoming traffic,riding diagonally across traffic lighted junctions oblivious to traffic,and riding on the pavment of course, these can be singular cyclists and groups of three or four on a couple of occasions and a wider age group than you would think (one man was in his forties i'd say).
This kind of behavior must make the none cycling motorist very angry/frustrated and produce contempt for these cyclists among the motoring community and rightly so,sprinkle in a bit of negative media coverage, the compulsory rush hour jam the "i'm paying road tax,ins,cost of petrol etc"and seeing cyclists going quicker than you are able to in heavy traffic, this contemptable thought pattern could then be carried through to include all cyclists.
The result can be disasterous,and sometimes is.
There is a contempt for the law in this country brought about by poor thinking or none at all,and poor policing due to lack of funding.Policing that deals with the symptoms and not the causes of crime, and a break down of decency and self respect.(if you can get away with it then do so attitude).
We are a society on the slide.
That is why on the road I trust no one, ride assertively,hit the side of a car with the a flat hand if it comes too close (they always go away from noise) wear a helmet (because i believe it offers at least some protection)and use a rear view mirror (so i can keep an eye on the beggers).
So there you have it the gospel acording to R2. I thank you(said like Arther Askey)