The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

A place to discuss the issues relating to the proposed change in the national CTC’s structure.
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meic
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby meic » 14 Sep 2012, 11:41am

Barry Flood wrote:
Jonty wrote:Jonty wrote:
I'm confused because I'm receiving contrary opinions on this matter.
Surely whether or not the CTC is restricted to only allocating 25% of members contributions towards member benefits if it were to become a charity, and whether or not it could increase the amount of money spent on member benefits to 125% of total member contributions if it were to become a charity, are matters of FACT not OPINION.


Firstly may I say that all of the information given either here or in the CTC website is based on specialist tax advice taken by Council. That advice indicates that any non qualifying member benefits will fall easily within the 25% allowable, (the magazine for example will not be counted a member benefit), thus leaving the whole of the member subscription qualifying for Gift Aid. But....even if the 25% limit is exceeded we could still qualify for Gift Aid on the vast majority of the membership subscription, which would bring massive extra funding to the club.

This is a complex area, but one where all the professionals involved anticipate a favourable outcome. If you would like to go into further detail here is a link to the matter on our website, http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=5364. Alternatively I invite you, or anyone else with specific points to contact me direct at Barry.Flood@CTC.org.uk

Jonty wrote:Now there's a 'Good Idea' (as long as members get an unedited report from the independant expert)


An answer to this point was posted yesterday by our Financial Advisor;
"The report on the tax position was originally commissioned for the use of Council, and thus contained one section relating to engagement with the Inland Revenue to optimise the outcome for the CTC. As I'm sure you can imagine, publishing that section might be counterproductive in such discussions, so it was redacted from the publicly available copy. No conspiracy theory, no smoking gun, and indeed for that matter nothing to do with the current club / charity vote either.

For the purposes of transparency, I think it was originally me who noted the section had been included in the report circulated to Council and therefore suggested it be removed.

Simon Connell
Financial Advisor to Council"

The independent experts Sayers Vincent tax report is available on the CTC website.

Regards

Barry Flood CTC Councillor (and ex HM Inspector of Taxes)


Well it is renewal time again for the subscription fees and I cant help but notice the lack of a Gift Aid tick box then remembering how we were sold this whole Charity issue on the strength of Gift Aid revenue.
Yma o Hyd

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RickH
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby RickH » 14 Sep 2012, 8:31pm

meic wrote:Well it is renewal time again for the subscription fees and I cant help but notice the lack of a Gift Aid tick box then remembering how we were sold this whole Charity issue on the strength of Gift Aid revenue.

All is not lost - it can be claimed back retrospectively (I think for the previous 6 years) presumably, in this instance, limited by the later of when the CTC has formally become a charity the start of a donor's contributions within that time. I presume there is a reason, rather than just inertia, why it hasn't appeared yet as the option isn't on the joining page of the website yet either (although I note in passing that there is a spelling mistake on that page - "privicy policy"!)

Rick.

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gaz
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby gaz » 14 Sep 2012, 11:03pm

meic wrote:Well it is renewal time again for the subscription fees and I cant help but notice the lack of a Gift Aid tick box then remembering how we were sold this whole Charity issue on the strength of Gift Aid revenue.

What we were told can still be found, here.

From which:

Gift aid
• The first step will be to value the benefits provided to the different categories of member and
establish, for each category, if the 25% / £25 donor benefit limits are broken. Based on these
calculations you should then decide if you want to restructure the membership subscriptions and
associated benefits. You will also need to take into consideration any VAT implications.
• You should then present your preferred interpretation to HMRC Charities for approval. This may
require flexibility and negotiation so it may take some time to agree. You should also agree what
pre-registration subscriptions gift aid can be recovered on.
• You will need to set up systems for obtaining and storing gift aid declarations from members. If you
ensure gift aid declarations can be backdated and cover donations to other group charities then gift
aid can also be claimed on the member’s donations to other group charities in the last 4 years


Of course I've no idea of what we weren't told. :wink:

However the documents also set out that the first step after charitable registration of the CTC (Reg No 1147607) would be for it to merge with (takeover) the CTC Charitable Trust (Reg No 1104324). Presumbably it is only when that step is completed that Gift Aid will be discussed with HMRC.

I have no idea of the timescale for either process, perhaps both will prove to be similar to that taken to set up the new website. :wink:
2020 : To redundancy ... and beyond!

belgiangoth
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby belgiangoth » 14 Sep 2012, 11:14pm

Not overtly a fan of the charity kool-aid; however I'll make some noise when I notice a change - it's been 7+ years now that nothing's* changed, 2 of which with a vote for charity.
(* ok, subs have gone up, but they always did).
If I had a baby elephant I would let it sleep in the garage in place of the car. If I had either a garage or a car. (I miss sigs about baby elephants)

Steady rider
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby Steady rider » 16 Sep 2012, 7:44pm

With the CTC now being a charity. Possibly the public should contribute more to the running of the CTC and less contribution expected from members.

Bearing in mind most household bills are increasing more than many peoples disposal income and the CTC wants to be a suitable organisation for any cyclist to join.

With this in mind would a CTC AGM motion asking for membership fees not to be increased for a period, not less than 3 years is suggested and thereafter below inflation rates. If financial benefits occurs from being a charity then the CTC should take steps to reduce membership fees as well as improving the services it provides.

Would member groups support the above?

drossall
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby drossall » 16 Sep 2012, 9:28pm

I don't think it really works like that.

A charity is not necessarily an organisation that raises a significant part (or indeed any) of its income from donations or gifts. It's a body that provides a public benefit and, in exchange, gets certain concessions relating to taxation and the like.

The charity's services must, in principle and within reason*, be available to anybody.

I can't see gifts or grants being an income source for the CTC, other than for specific projects.

* A charity for the disabled doesn't have to provide services to the able-bodied, and a charity for those in financial difficulty doesn't have to provide services to the rich, but I don't think you could have a charity open only to those who can beat the hour for a "25".

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gaz
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby gaz » 17 Sep 2012, 8:31pm

Steady rider wrote:With the CTC now being a charity. Possibly the public should contribute more to the running of the CTC and less contribution expected from members.

Bearing in mind most household bills are increasing more than many peoples disposal income and the CTC wants to be a suitable organisation for any cyclist to join.


I think part of the plan behind becoming a Charity was that it would open up more funding opportunities for specific additional projects the CTC would like to undertake for the public good. Put simply the increased income would fund the increased costs. An army of Chuggers is not about to descend upon the UK's High Streets seeking public donations for the Charity.

Council will point out that it already has a range of membership options to assist the unwaged, students, families, etc, (not forgetting free family membership for prime ministers :wink:).

Membership subscriptions may prove to be eligible for Gift Aid. This would be an additional income stream which is not directly attached to a particular project. However I don't think anyone promoting the Charity conversion has ever suggested that membership rates could be reduced as a result of Gift Aid.

Steady rider wrote:With this in mind would a CTC AGM motion asking for membership fees not to be increased for a period, not less than 3 years is suggested and thereafter below inflation rates. If financial benefits occurs from being a charity then the CTC should take steps to reduce membership fees as well as improving the services it provides.


The costs of providing member benefits aren't going to be frozen for three years, neither are they likely to be below inflation. It's not easy to improve services in the short term whilst reducing costs.
2020 : To redundancy ... and beyond!

Steady rider
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby Steady rider » 17 Sep 2012, 9:42pm

The CTC should have a plan for its charity activities. If these produce a net gain then membership fees could be reduced to attract more members. If the CTC can publish a plan the members could comment or suggest more ways to raise funds.

Regulator
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby Regulator » 17 Sep 2012, 10:54pm

Steady rider wrote:The CTC should have a plan for its charity activities. If these produce a net gain then membership fees could be reduced to attract more members. If the CTC can publish a plan the members could comment or suggest more ways to raise funds.



Charitable funds cannot be used to subsidise the membership - that would be unlawful. Which is why Council was 'stretching the truth' when it suggested that the CTC Trust was subsidising the Club.

tyreon
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby tyreon » 12 Mar 2013, 7:49pm

My,how complicated things can become! Read thru texts,messages,comments,threads...and becoming completely bamboozled! Perhaps that's the point: such consititutions invite those whose interest really is in fine detail and argument. All well and good. But with me confused,now half asleep,better,quicker minds,now meet and arrange benefits that(oftentimes?)begin to benefit themselves rather than those they represent.
I don't know if this is right or wrong...but it just always seems to happen. Pretty soon you've got a squirearchy who, because of the complexity of the work they undertake, have to be paid top $,then maybe fly to Hawaii to undertake research into...'the round wheel'(?)or some such.(The best research is always done in faraway coutries,those with sunshine)When this complex institution begins to appear remote from its public(cyclists),the public(cyclist) begins to look elsewhere for representation...or just gives up...and just carries on cycling. The disenfrachisement between the coalface and the committe room's happening throughout the country and continent.

I wanted to follow the Charity v Club debate. I'd like a simple explanation of benefits v drawbacks. I have some suspicion of the current change. Never seen so many charities in the country.Wotsitallabout! Is it TCB,as ol' Colnel Parker used to say!!! Follow the £££

bertgrower
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby bertgrower » 24 Sep 2017, 12:00pm

We have had a few years as charity and now as Cycling UK. The question that could be asked are

Have the benefits been realised?

Were the drawback overstated?

PH
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby PH » 24 Sep 2017, 2:30pm

bertgrower wrote:Have the benefits been realised?

The advised gift aid has been sorted, Cycling UK seems to be getting more recognition than CTC was at the time, the interest in my member group via the Cycling UK website has increased. There's also noticeably more support for local groups than in recent years, though I'd like to see even more integration. It's all too early to judge, but when asking what benefit it needs to be understood who the beneficiaries are.
Were the drawback overstated?

If what you wanted was a dedicated Cyclists' Touring Club, that's not what you've got. Though it arguable that you didn't have that before the conversion either, or even when if ever that was the case. The biggest drawback discussed at the time was the lack of accountability and democracy, with the trustees obligation to act in the interests of the charity rather than the members. But there wasn't much evidence that such accountability and democracy existed previously, the biggest decision that led us down this path was the handing over of the main assets to the Trust, did anyone ask the members about that?
IMO there's been winners and losers, but I expect for the majority of members it's made no noticeable difference.

bertgrower
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby bertgrower » 24 Sep 2017, 4:21pm

How do you measure benefits?

There some debate on facebook that suggest the membership of CUK is between 55,000 to 64,000 if true the number is going down.

thirdcrank
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby thirdcrank » 24 Sep 2017, 5:13pm

bertgrower wrote: ... How do you measure benefits? ...


I was tempted to ask you that when you resurrected the thread and then I decided against. Now you have posed the supplementary question, I'd be interested to hear your own measures.

JohnW
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Postby JohnW » 24 Sep 2017, 5:29pm

PH wrote:..............Though it arguable that you didn't have that before the conversion either, or even when if ever that was the case................


It certainly used to be the case PH - even in my lifetime I remember the time...................try to get hold of some 'Gazettes' from the 1950s and 60s - and even into the 70s. Touring, in it's wider sense, certainly was the thrust...........even the raison d'être in days before that. However, the world has changed - people have changed and cycling has changed. The world is different - people do different things. Cycling has become a wider and wider church, and the touring, which was the tradition that I was brought up in and my parents before me, is really a minority cycling pastime. The CTC was already changing, and it had to change further to recognise, survive even, a changing world.

The tragedy has been that the actual changes included (perhaps driven by) those changes which were neither necessary nor beneficial and has resulted in an organisation which is not member driven - some people think not even member friendly.

But we have what we have, and we have to get on with it, and if what PH says, about an apparent rise in interest and activity, it could be that there are compensations and consolations.

At least for people of my cycling generation, we have golden memories of something that will probably never return.
Last edited by JohnW on 24 Sep 2017, 5:47pm, edited 1 time in total.