day lights

[glueman]

Last year on a group run I noticed a few cyclists were using flashing lights in daylight. It's not a thing I've ever considered but a couple of incidents have made me re-evaluate the idea. On a recent Saturday ride I was climbing a twisty road through some trees when a car that had been speeding slowed down markedly when it saw me coming the other way. I'd forgotten to turn the lights off from early morning and the car had taken its cues from the flashing one at the front.

I tried using daylight rear at the back after the group ride and noticed a definite incease in road space from passing vehicles. Not sure why this should be, maybe they think the rider isn't confident or any contact would look bad if the cyclists was shown to be making extra effort to be seen. Anyone else have similar experience?

[eltonioni]

I was thinking about this only yesterday. I've noticed it when driving that the shadows cast under trees etc at this time of year cause problems with contrast especially when people are wearing sunnies. A rear 1/2w flasher is not as daft as it sounds in the bright sunshine.

[EdinburghFixed]

It's not quite the same thing but I have experimented with using my helmet-mounted 900 lumen torch during the day. It's rather good at stopping rogue pull-out / hook events but not so much because it makes you more visible (after all, you're there to be seen in daylight) but simply because it's a bit unusual.

If everybody did it, it would just be what cyclists look like and I don't think the effect would be as pronounced.

[glueman]

I don't think it's that drivers don't 'see' unlit riders, but a flashing light somehow overrides their liberty-taking impulses, a kind of back off warning. It's not foolproof and some will no doubt see it as added incentive to mark their territory but the averages are in favour of running daylight flashers I feel.

[wyadvd]

i have an exposure maxxd on full beam (angled down to focus 10m ahead) an my bars. a diabolo on the helmet. on the back i have two ortliebs padded out with newspaper, a cateye handganade mounted on the extreme right of my ortlieb. exposure redeye in centre of trunk bag, also blinking mars. all batteried charged weekly regardless. all on whenever i ride . i belive they are most needed in very bright spring and autumn sunshine.

[wyadvd]

i nearly ran down a paiir of cyclists in my car the other day becuase they were totally invisible as i had sun in my eyes and they were in the gutter and in the shadows. it scared me because when i drive i look for cyclists naturally. if they had an ecposure redeye on the back id have seen them no problems.

[[XAP]Bob]

i nearly ran down a paiir of cyclists in my car the other day becuase they were totally invisible as i had sun in my eyes and they were in the gutter and in the shadows. it scared me because when i drive i look for cyclists naturally. if they had an ecposure redeye on the back id have seen them no problems.

It's so easy to end up just driving blind...

But you did see them - did you need to make an emergency stop? Or were they not that invisible?

[wyadvd]

the event shocked me because i was being careful.....many as are not! it was in a sixty zone. as soon as i was blinded by the sun i reduced my speed to 30: the cyclists only appeared at the instant that i entered the shadows myself. ( on a busy a road an emergency stop manouvre may well have precipitated a pile up), and i was able to slow further and swerve. it also goes to show that being a driver makes you a safer cyclist. im a 150 mile a week cyclo commuter btw.

[wyadvd]

in very bright low sunshine, lighting conditions literally change in the blinking of an eye. and they human eye cannot adjust as quickly. dark glasses just decrease contrast perception within the dark areas.

do you drive bob?

[niggle]

the event shocked me because i was being careful.....many as are not! it was in a sixty zone. as soon as i was blinded by the sun i reduced my speed to 30: the cyclists only appeared at the instant that i entered the shadows myself. ( on a busy a road an emergency stop manouvre may well have precipitated a pile up), and i was able to slow further and swerve. it also goes to show that being a driver makes you a safer cyclist. im a 150 mile a week cyclo commuter btw.

Time to start looking and planning further ahead IMO, you should be anticipating the problem of shadows cast by trees, really you should only drive at a speed where you know you can stop in the distance you can see and that includes being able to see any unlit objects (if you cannot see an unlit cyclist, can you see a pedestrian or even a car broken down on the side of the road?).

Apart from early in the morning or late in the evening, the sun should be high enough at this time of year that your sun visors are effective, but also sunglasses do help, particularly polaroid, and can be dipped or raised out of the line of sight if necessary. Also helps if you keep the windscreen clean. If you wear spectacles that is another issue, these modern ones that darken or lighten in response to light levels are much too slow to react, you used to be able to put clip-on tinted lenses on clear specs which could be flipped up in an instant, but not seen anyone using them for a good while.

None of the above is contradictory to it being a good idea for cyclists to use lights in these conditions and I have done so on occasions. Maybe cyclists would be best off using a permanently running rear light such as the Reelight but the problem then is that of de facto compulsion when it gets to be common practice.

[kwackers]

Losing things in shadows is always a problem, not helped by your "driving too fast, sunglasses wearing" car driver.
The basic problem is your eyes are adjusted for the sun - anything that isn't lit by it drops right down in terms of contrast. I doubt very much whether anything but the absolute brightest rear light would make much impression on a pair of irises that have closed down to virtual pin holes.
I also wonder just how much of an issue it really is, I haven't seen anything that suggests cyclists are more likely to be killed on sunny days...

Having said that, when cycling I'm well aware of shadows and take more care, which usually means being more aware of traffic approaching from the rear and moving left towards the gutter just in case when it approaches... Other than that (and visible plain/bright clothing) I don't think there's an awful lot I can do.
In these sorts of circumstances I do wonder if the sorts of yellow/green cycling gear who's outlines are broken up with lots of crap printed all over them don't essentially boil down to camouflage...

As for day-lights, I'd rather not. More stuff to maintain, more batteries to buy/charge/replace when dead. Dubious usefulness and no data to suggest otherwise. I'd suggest a fluorescent jacket with a speed camera style sign on the back is likely to increase space by much more.

Interestingly when flying you can lose entire cities in the shadow of clouds. I once nearly flew past Crewe because it was hidden by shadow...

[niggle]

Losing things in shadows is always a problem, not helped by your "driving too fast, sunglasses wearing" car driver.
The basic problem is your eyes are adjusted for the sun - anything that isn't lit by it drops right down in terms of contrast. I doubt very much whether anything but the absolute brightest rear light would make much impression on a pair of irises that have closed down to virtual pin holes.

But if you are wearing sunglasses then push them/pull them out of the way as you enter a shaded area your pupils will have a head start as they will not be so constricted in the first place.

I also wonder just how much of an issue it really is, I haven't seen anything that suggests cyclists are more likely to be killed on sunny days...

Not sure the stats are readily available? I knew a driver years ago who ran into the back of a hatchback with a hospital minibus full of patients when she was blinded by the sun, the elderly female hatchback driver had braked when she was unable to see. The hatchback was written off and the minibus needed major surgery, but no injuries fortunately. The minibus driver said 'what was I supposed to do?'

Having said that, when cycling I'm well aware of shadows and take more care, which usually means being more aware of traffic approaching from the rear and moving left towards the gutter just in case when it approaches... Other than that (and visible plain/bright clothing) I don't think there's an awful lot I can do.
In these sorts of circumstances I do wonder if the sorts of yellow/green cycling gear who's outlines are broken up with lots of crap printed all over them don't essentially boil down to camouflage...

Something flouro that contrasts well with the general background, eg. pink or orange, in a solid, obviously human shape is probably best IMO.

As for day-lights, I'd rather not. More stuff to maintain, more batteries to buy/charge/replace when dead. Dubious usefulness and no data to suggest otherwise.

Which is why I suggested the Reelights, magnetic induction battery free lights that are always on and meet lighting regs, fit and forget so you can fend off any 'contributory negligence' rubbish from insurance companies, rather than expecting them to have much real safety benefit (but in dark shadow good cycle rear lights are more prominent than you seem to think IME).

EDIT: Reelights, constant flashing rear light with built in reflector (with two minute standlight feature) for rack or seat post:
http://www.parkersofbolton.co.uk/p-1797 ... ck-up.aspx
http://www.parkersofbolton.co.uk/p-1800 ... ck-up.aspx

I'd suggest a fluorescent jacket with a speed camera style sign on the back is likely to increase space by much more.

Been thinking about that one as well, a bit cheaper and less hassle than a real camera...

[wyadvd]

if you actually do have a helmet cam, then i have been led to believe that if you have warnings then it changes the legal status of the images you capture such that you may not be able to use them to protect yourself after the event so to speak.

I take all the driving advice offerred thankyou very much. my point was that blinding light combined with very dark shadows is alighting scenario that can arise in milliseconds. no time to react soon enough.??????

[glueman]

As I suggested earlier, I don't think daylight flashers are about being seen, any reasonably light garment can be perceived in most conditions. It's perhaps more to do with the manifest negligence of running into a rider showing a flashing light that makes some drivers give a wider berth.

It could be a similar response to a rear observation from a cyclist, they're no longer an abstract rider shaped object, an anonymous back to be negotiated but a person capable of seeing any transgressions the driver makes. Maybe flashing lights make a subtle but noticable shift in perception of culpability. Whatever does the trick there's something going on in the clearances given.

[CREPELLO]

Let the Lighting Wars commence . My bet's on the Cars winning . Blummin modern Volvo's look like they've got full beam lights for so called driving lights (what was wrong with those little driving lights the '80's Volvos used?)

So, when it's gonna be seen as negligent in a court to not have day lights on a cycle???