Dropped kerbs

thirdcrank
Posts: 36740
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Dropped kerbs

Post by thirdcrank »

No need to apologise for my shortcomings (I was sort of in the right direction but a long way short :roll: )

Thanks to the wonders of streetview olé:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&sourc ... 48.94,,0,5

================================================================

PS I see the relevant authority is North Tyneside. I found this on their website:

If you encounter any problems whilst using the Cycling infrastructure in North Tyneside including Debris, rubbish or obstructions contact Environlink on:

envirolink@northtyneside.gov.uk
Tel: 0845 2000 103


Environlink is the department dealing with rubbish so it is probably the best place to notify about rubbish cycling facilities. :mrgreen:
thirdcrank
Posts: 36740
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Dropped kerbs

Post by thirdcrank »

http://www.cyclistsdefencefund.org.uk/w ... en-a-crash

Sound advice there. I had forgotten I resolved to link to that whenever anybody asked what to do after a crash.
chris1576
Posts: 39
Joined: 2 Oct 2010, 11:16am

Re: Dropped kerbs

Post by chris1576 »

I now need a metal plate in my shoulder (Friday).

I'm now off work (which I enjoy) and my bike (which I enjoy more) until new year.

I met a solicitor from the firm that represents ctc members. She said it may be difficult to make a case against the council in this instance, but would look into it. and any similar case law.

Does anyone know of any similar cases?
thirdcrank
Posts: 36740
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Dropped kerbs

Post by thirdcrank »

Glad to hear you are on the mend but it sounds as though it will be a long haul. A bit of a dispiriting first interview with the solicitor but a lot will depend on what turns up when they dig the books out. Even if you get the thumbs down in the end, at least you will know that your case has been looked at by somebody with your interests at heart.

For a case to act as a precedent, It's not just a matter of 'something similar happened to a mate of mine.' A legal precedent (in England and Wales) is set when a higher court hears the arguments about a specific issue and decides a principle of law. This usually happens when an earlier precedent seems to fit the circumstance but somebody (usually somebody with deep pockets) successfully argues that their case is a bit different and so it is 'distinguished' from the earlier case. Occasionally, a higher court than the one which set the original precedent overturns it completely. Anyway, all these decided cases, or at least the most important, find their way into law books and it is a lawyer's job to do the research to find the most relevant. Probably not somebody who was brought down by a dropped kerb, but somewhere where it was decided that a highway authority was responsible if they built a defective highway. They are certainly responsible if something like this happens through a poorly maintained road (big pothole etc) subject to an escape hatch if they can show that they did not now about it and they had a reasonable inspection regime to detect defects. That defence can hardly apply here since they installed it so they must have known.

Anyway, that's largely conjecture, which is why I feel you have done the right thing in consulting a solicitor, and I'm sure everybody hopes you will soon be fully recovered.
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Graham
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Re: Dropped kerbs

Post by Graham »

In view of the consequences of this incident. Applying to the Cyclists' Defence Fund could be worth a try.
http://www.cyclistsdefencefund.org.uk/l ... e-cyclists

I think what the road engineers have done here is bad. They have created a dangererous transition between road and cycletrack. A bit more thought ( and probably compliance with guidelines ) would have avoided this.
. . and how much more public money to correct it ??
snibgo
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Joined: 29 Jun 2010, 4:45am

Re: Dropped kerbs

Post by snibgo »

It's another example of design or implementation that appears to be for the safety of cyclists, but actually puts them in danger. I doubt the step is for drainage -- would it really matter if water spilled from the road to the path? -- but it wouldn't matter if it were. Road engineers shouldn't install a step that offs a cyclist who takes the obvious route across it.

I hope the accident has been reported to the police. After all, someone other than the cyclist is to blame (IMHO), and legal action may be taken (again, IMHO).
thirdcrank
Posts: 36740
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Dropped kerbs

Post by thirdcrank »

Unless you had been killed and they were preparing a report for the coroner, I think there is nothing here that would even lead to a police pen coming out.
snibgo
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Joined: 29 Jun 2010, 4:45am

Re: Dropped kerbs

Post by snibgo »

I hope the police would log the incident, so it would eventually appear in the statistics for this particular junction.
thirdcrank
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Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Dropped kerbs

Post by thirdcrank »

AFAIK, to get into the statistics of the type you describe, it has to be the subject of an accident report. A lot of this is geared up to the duty of the driver of a motor vehicle to report an accident to the police. That talks about injury to any person, other than the driver of the vehicle, or to any animal, or damage to property. Rightly or wrongly, fall off your bike without the contribution of a motor vehicle and I don't think it's going to go in an accident book. Remember, the police are looking for evidence for a prosecution, anything of value to a civil claim is a by-product of that. Sometime when it's rainy, I'll see if I can find something in writing, but this is one of those things I think I just know.

Meanwhile, back on the civil law, as opposed to police procedures, the duty to maintain a highway is in relatively modern legislation, and it's in the Highways Act 1980.

Highways Act 1980
41.
Duty to maintain highways maintainable at public expense.— (1) The authority who are for the time being the highway authority for a highway maintainable at the public expense are under a duty, subject to subsections (2) and (4) below, to maintain the highway.

(The exceptions are all administrative and nothing to do with this IMO.)

The usual negligence actions against the authorities are because of alleged unrepaired defects, irregular footways being said to be the happy hunting ground of slippers and trippers. Here's the highway authority's special defence to a civil action for negligence which is in section 58 of the same act:
Special defence in action against a highway authority for damages for non-repair of highway.—
(1) In an action against a highway authority in respect of damage resulting from their failure to maintain a highway maintainable at the public expense it is a defence (without prejudice to any other defence or the application of the law relating to contributory negligence) to prove that the authority had taken such care as in all the circumstances was reasonably required to secure that the part of the highway to which the action relates was not dangerous for traffic.

(2) For the purposes of a defence under subsection (1) above, the court shall in particular have regard to the following matters:—
(a)
the character of the highway, and the traffic which was reasonably to be expected to use it;
(b)
the standard of maintenance appropriate for a highway of that character and used by such traffic;
(c)
the state of repair in which a reasonable person would have expected to find the highway;
(d)
whether the highway authority knew, or could reasonably have been expected to know, that the condition of the part of the highway to which the action relates was likely to cause danger to users of the highway;
(e)
where the highway authority could not reasonably have been expected to repair that part of the highway before the cause of action arose, what warning notices of its condition had been displayed;
but for the purposes of such a defence it is not relevant to prove that the highway authority had arranged for a competent person to carry out or supervise the maintenance of the part of the highway to which the action relates unless it is also proved that the authority had given him proper instructions with regard to the maintenance of the highway and that he had carried out the instructions.


I think I'd struggle to find anything in there which said that the duty imposed on the authority by section 41 to maintain the highway was removed in this case by anything there. The standard of reasonableness tends to be set by expert evidence from 'independent' highwaymen on the basis of mutual solidarity, but I don't think anybody could keep a straight face and argue, for example, that under (a) a cyclist could not reasonably be expected to use a cycle track, and in particular the officially signed access point.

Anyway, I'm no lawyer and you don't keep a dog and bark yourself.
snibgo
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Joined: 29 Jun 2010, 4:45am

Re: Dropped kerbs

Post by snibgo »

I can believe the police wouldn't be interested.

Is it worth the OP reporting the incident to the highway authority (presumaby the Highways Authority)? So they know that this particular junction, and perhaps like it, is "likely to cause danger to users of the highway".
thirdcrank
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Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Dropped kerbs

Post by thirdcrank »

snibgo wrote:I can believe the police wouldn't be interested.

Is it worth the OP reporting the incident to the highway authority (presumaby the Highways Authority)? So they know that this particular junction, and perhaps like it, is "likely to cause danger to users of the highway".


That's probably a good idea, not least because when it happens to somebody else, they won't be able to claim ignorance. OTOH, if you read what I said on p1, with what Pete O also said and in more detail than me, they'll probably say it's necessary for drainage. Without digging out my copy at this time of night, that was dealt with in Cycle-friendly Infrastructure in the 1990's and nothing has changed. It's also something I should have expected to be highlighted in a cycle audit of the scheme, but by the standards of cycle facilities in the UK, that's not the worst.

(It's a strange thing. The nature of the internet means there are lurkers under all sorts of gloomy bridges watching this sort of discussion. It's only very rarely they can be provoked into checking what that trip-trapping noise is. :wink: )
snibgo
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Joined: 29 Jun 2010, 4:45am

Re: Dropped kerbs

Post by snibgo »

I used to be a civil engineer. In my day, drainage didn't take precedence over safety.

I doubt the authority will say, "We realise this design can make cyclists fall off and break bones, and possibly then get hit by following traffic, but it's a cheap way of keeping the water flowing."
Tonyf33
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Joined: 17 Nov 2007, 3:31pm
Location: Letchworth N.Herts

Re: Dropped kerbs

Post by Tonyf33 »

Sounds like a hefty Five figure payout & a proper rollicking is in order. Disgraceful road design. The problem is we often pay the penalty for poor/ill thought out design whether that is done by the book or not. Certainly we have had at least 1 cyclist death earlier this year that involved poor road design/layout. :twisted:
snibgo
Posts: 4604
Joined: 29 Jun 2010, 4:45am

Re: Dropped kerbs

Post by snibgo »

I was taking a cheap shot above. Keeping water flowing is needed for safety, or it pools and turns to ice. But it can be done without creating trip-points.
irc
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Location: glasgow

Re: Dropped kerbs

Post by irc »

snibgo wrote:I hope the police would log the incident, so it would eventually appear in the statistics for this particular junction.


If it is reported to the police it should be recorded.

"2. ACCIDENTS TO BE REPORTED ........

(c) accidents to pedal cyclists or horse riders, where they injure themselves or a pedestrian;"

http://www.stats19.org.uk/html/stats_20_notes.html

But as stated by Thirdcrank the police are used to dealing with MV RTAs so if I was reporting a cycle only accident I would take a printout of the Stats 20 notes with me to the police station. If a civilian employee at the front office tries to tell you a cycle only accident isn't reportable/recordable just ask to speak to a police officer. Most police employees (other than police officers) have very little if any legal knowledge. Or if they do it relates to a very narrow area of the law.
No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?
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