Signage on NCR routes

[anothereye]

Prompted by the recent publicity about the Paris - London cycle route:
http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=42769&hilit=paris
I have a general comment; the signage on NCR routes varies from good to awful. It appears that Sustrans can only put up stickers and are dependent on whoever is responsible for the roads to put up proper signs. Perhaps this doesn't happen as they think that the stickers are enough, THEY ARE NOT.
Traveling North from Crawley (on the the route from Paris) I took the attached picture, it is taken just South of Gatwick. I really had to search for this sign and many others.

[anothereye]

I forgot to say; we all pay for road signs through national and local taxation. I don't drive but I'm paying for signs for motorists. How come there aren't enough signs for cyclists?

[Jonty]

There are far too many signs for motorists. Sign clutter is a widespread problem. I counted several unnecessary signs a few days ago during a 10 mile drive to Melton Mowbray. There was a sign saying 50 mph just before a series of hairpin bends which you couldn' take any faster than 30. I also saw a 50 mph sign just after a 40 mph sign and about 100 yards from a roundabout where you had to slow down or stop.
Yes, let's have more signs for cyclists AND clear up sign clutter.
jonty

[james01]

Another signage issue (which I think has cropped up on this forum) is the use of local destinations only on many long distance routes. These can be meaningless to a long distance rider. Why not repeat the end destination on all signs, eg NCN8 Southwards could always state "Cardiff" as well as any local directions, otherwise you can find yourself going the wrong way (yes, it happened to me ).
The three rules which will make or break a network of bike routes are : 1. Good signs 2. Good signs 3.Good signs

[[XAP]Bob]

But you're a cyclist, so you're stopping every three yards, and travelling at a max of 7 miles per hour anyway -aren't you?
And cycle journeys are only ever to the next village, any further and you'd drive - right ?

[Vorpal]

No offense, folks, but signage, in general, in the UK is poor. It's only worse on cycle routes than other places.

I navigate country lanes by looking at maps, and knowing the next village I'm aiming for, approximate mileage to the next turning, etc. It simply isn't possible for me to to follow signs (cycling) to the next town, or the ultimate destination. If the next town is sign-posted, the signs will take me to the recommended throughfare (i.e. major trunk road or motorway), where I don't' want to cycle (and may not want to drive). And signs are inconsistent. There are some places near Colchester, for example, where upon joining the A120, the signs says 'Harwich' for one direction and 'Puckeridge' for the other. At other junctures, the signs say 'Braintree' and 'Colchester'. It's just luck whether you can tell which direction to go without consulting a map, if you aren't familiar with the area.

I've also seen two roads sign-posted for one little village, when there are actually three villages are in the area, and at the second road, the other two villages are closer than the one on the sign. I've seen towns sign-posted 100 miles from the town, and not at a junction of nearby trunk roads.

Also, every town and city in the country have signs that say 'city centre' or 'town centre' without saying *which* town or city. That's fine if you've just passed a sign that says 'Welcome to ...'. It's quite another if there are adjoining towns, or you've gotten off your route, and aren't certain what place you are approaching. I've never been so lost that I didn't know what general area I was in, but I have been confused by adjoining towns, more than once. And I've met cyclists visiting from other countries who have been so lost they didn't know what town those little signs meant.

In much of rural Essex, it's easier to follow an NCN route using the little stickers on the sign posts, than it is to find a town (any town) from the unclassified roads that cyclists prefer to use.

[Goosey]

Don't get me started on poor signage. It's the only thing that spoilt our trip from Bury St Edmunds to SW France...http://holidaysouthwestfrance.com/wordpress/?p=133

[DavidT]

I don't disagree with any of the comments above, but I quite enjoy finding my way around countryside areas with map in hand (or rather on bars). It's part of the fun of pootling around on touring type/leisure rides? I appreciate the problem if you are not pootling, and/or with an eye on a stopwatch!

The only time recently I've had to rely on NCR signing was (as a complete stranger) finding my way out of Norwich on NCN1. Signage was fine right out of the city, on quite a complex route. Although I'll admit to being pleasantly surprised by this.

As an aside, someone has just put up a beautiful new NCR route (turn) sign in my nick of the woods in the Vale of Belvoir that is so close to the road - the arm element virtually overhanging the road surface, that I reckon within a month or two a tractor & load will take it out. Goodbye nice blue sign..... Shame.

[anothereye]

... I appreciate the problem if you are not pootling, and/or with an eye on a stopwatch!

All I want is parity; motorists have plenty of signs between towns but they are not always preferable routes for (all) cyclists.

[awparker]

May I add my voice in favour of the small NCN stickers.

They give the required information of the route and are not so easily vandalised or stolen. The pointers may give extra detail like distance and destination but unfortunately often seem to have been "adjusted" to point 90 degrees out of line. Given that NCN routes often twist and turn in urban areas this change is easy to miss.

I also assume that the sickers are cheaper to manufacture and place in position.

Comments from any NCN volunteer rangers, whose work I much appreciate, would be particularly welcome

Alan

[Pete Owens]

But you're a cyclist, so you're stopping every three yards, and travelling at a max of 7 miles per hour anyway -aren't you?
And cycle journeys are only ever to the next village, any further and you'd drive - right ?

And if you don't fit that category you would want to avoid the national cycle network anyway.

[Si]

May I add my voice in favour of the small NCN stickers.

They give the required information of the route and are not so easily vandalised or stolen. The pointers may give extra detail like distance and destination but unfortunately often seem to have been "adjusted" to point 90 degrees out of line. Given that NCN routes often twist and turn in urban areas this change is easy to miss.

I also assume that the sickers are cheaper to manufacture and place in position.

Our bit of path started with proper pointy sign posts, and as you say, they ended up being turned round to point the wrong way. The newer parts of the path have stickers instead. So far none appear to have been vandalised in any way, but the problem is that some are very hard to see. Given that they have to be on something fairly solid and flat, they can sometimes end up some distance (considering their size) from the path.

It must be very difficult for those attempting to signpost a route as neither of these solutions is ideal in all circumstances. Even where they have put in wooden signposts that can't be turned around without lifting equipment the vandals have tried to set fire to them, or have spray painted them.

[byegad]

My local council uses square posts to avoid the turning of signs in vulnerable places. I.E. where yoofs gather. They still bend the finger around as far as they can, but the direction is still obvious, to a cyclist who has time to examine the fitting.

[[XAP]Bob]

What about having blue lines on the tarmac for "non obvious" corners?

[Si]

you'd have to persuade them to use tarmac instead of that 'orrible gravelly stuff first.